1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:03,169 [Music] 2 00:00:33,660 --> 00:00:05,250 thank you 3 00:00:42,229 --> 00:00:33,670 [Music] 4 00:01:05,149 --> 00:00:43,580 foreign 5 00:01:09,050 --> 00:01:07,310 good afternoon good morning good evening 6 00:01:11,149 --> 00:01:09,060 wherever you may be Across the Nation 7 00:01:13,130 --> 00:01:11,159 around the world I'm your host Leah 8 00:01:15,649 --> 00:01:13,140 Prime and this is the invisible night 9 00:01:17,929 --> 00:01:15,659 school thank you so much for joining us 10 00:01:20,570 --> 00:01:17,939 this evening whether you're here live or 11 00:01:22,249 --> 00:01:20,580 catching us on a recorded stream of our 12 00:01:25,130 --> 00:01:22,259 conversation we are so glad that you're 13 00:01:27,170 --> 00:01:25,140 here the invisible night school is a 14 00:01:29,210 --> 00:01:27,180 small Consortium of lay researchers and 15 00:01:31,030 --> 00:01:29,220 Scholars exploring all elements of the 16 00:01:32,870 --> 00:01:31,040 numinous you can find us at the 17 00:01:34,789 --> 00:01:32,880 invisiblenightschool.com go ahead and 18 00:01:36,530 --> 00:01:34,799 like share subscribe to our Channel and 19 00:01:38,090 --> 00:01:36,540 join our Discord which is linked Below 20 00:01:40,010 --> 00:01:38,100 in the show description 21 00:01:42,670 --> 00:01:40,020 tonight we're welcoming Erica Lukes 22 00:01:45,710 --> 00:01:42,680 Erica Lukes Rockstar 23 00:01:47,510 --> 00:01:45,720 and the UFO world she just wrapped up 10 24 00:01:49,670 --> 00:01:47,520 years of UFO classified her Friday 25 00:01:51,109 --> 00:01:49,680 evening show and is ushering in a new 26 00:01:53,510 --> 00:01:51,119 project with expanding Frontiers 27 00:01:55,969 --> 00:01:53,520 research where she is working closely 28 00:01:58,429 --> 00:01:55,979 with Jack Brewer developing basically a 29 00:02:01,010 --> 00:01:58,439 research and archive Consortium around 30 00:02:02,929 --> 00:02:01,020 ufology without any further delay this 31 00:02:06,590 --> 00:02:02,939 evening I would love to welcome the 32 00:02:08,749 --> 00:02:06,600 co-hosts the brilliant Campo Moreira and 33 00:02:11,390 --> 00:02:08,759 our resident dubious Layman Nick coffin 34 00:02:13,790 --> 00:02:11,400 Collis how are you doing gentlemen doing 35 00:02:15,530 --> 00:02:13,800 well very well how about you 36 00:02:18,110 --> 00:02:15,540 oh I'm just a little pinch of Heaven 37 00:02:21,530 --> 00:02:18,120 still riding the high of spending all 38 00:02:23,270 --> 00:02:21,540 Saturday at a UFO conference 39 00:02:25,130 --> 00:02:23,280 um and Friday night before was that 40 00:02:27,530 --> 00:02:25,140 psychedelic Sangha in Brooklyn New York 41 00:02:30,290 --> 00:02:27,540 so I had a pretty 42 00:02:31,850 --> 00:02:30,300 um exotic couple days 43 00:02:34,309 --> 00:02:31,860 um and full of excitement though right 44 00:02:36,710 --> 00:02:34,319 full of excitement um filled with drama 45 00:02:38,809 --> 00:02:36,720 is we're all watching unfold on Twitter 46 00:02:40,910 --> 00:02:38,819 um and I expect next week when we do 47 00:02:43,369 --> 00:02:40,920 like an open Line Style Show we'll have 48 00:02:44,930 --> 00:02:43,379 a chance to dig into the um the 49 00:02:48,110 --> 00:02:44,940 conference and talk a little bit about 50 00:02:50,809 --> 00:02:48,120 what went on there it makes them I want 51 00:02:52,670 --> 00:02:50,819 to say good evening to shadowy spectrums 52 00:02:56,390 --> 00:02:52,680 hi to Matt 53 00:02:58,130 --> 00:02:56,400 Luda always good to see you dude spooky 54 00:03:00,589 --> 00:02:58,140 Simon I kind of love that we're getting 55 00:03:03,410 --> 00:03:00,599 like regulars every Wednesday night it's 56 00:03:07,250 --> 00:03:03,420 really cool it's Universal 57 00:03:08,750 --> 00:03:07,260 Bob Marley yes uh that Bob Marley is 58 00:03:09,650 --> 00:03:08,760 looking out 59 00:03:12,050 --> 00:03:09,660 um 60 00:03:13,070 --> 00:03:12,060 retirement in Ireland great to see all 61 00:03:16,070 --> 00:03:13,080 of you 62 00:03:17,509 --> 00:03:16,080 um and without any more delay I'm going 63 00:03:19,550 --> 00:03:17,519 to add Erica to the stream and have her 64 00:03:22,070 --> 00:03:19,560 join us 65 00:03:23,570 --> 00:03:22,080 hello Erica hey it's so great to have 66 00:03:25,070 --> 00:03:23,580 you here I'm really happy to be here 67 00:03:28,490 --> 00:03:25,080 thank you what a fun way to spend a 68 00:03:33,470 --> 00:03:30,710 so how are things in your Universe got a 69 00:03:35,149 --> 00:03:33,480 lot going on you know what I I took a 70 00:03:36,830 --> 00:03:35,159 break for well who am I kidding I didn't 71 00:03:38,509 --> 00:03:36,840 take a break I'm actually really ramping 72 00:03:41,089 --> 00:03:38,519 up for this new project as you mentioned 73 00:03:43,430 --> 00:03:41,099 with Jack Brewer um expanding Frontiers 74 00:03:44,930 --> 00:03:43,440 research and I've been busy behind the 75 00:03:46,729 --> 00:03:44,940 scenes setting up you know the bones of 76 00:03:49,190 --> 00:03:46,739 the organization as has Jack and then 77 00:03:52,130 --> 00:03:49,200 Jack has been doing some incredible uh 78 00:03:53,830 --> 00:03:52,140 research and has written a few blog 79 00:03:55,490 --> 00:03:53,840 posts so you can go to 80 00:03:56,930 --> 00:03:55,500 expandingfrontiersresearch.org to check 81 00:03:59,270 --> 00:03:56,940 out some of the things that he's doing 82 00:04:01,369 --> 00:03:59,280 to push the boundaries in this subject 83 00:04:02,990 --> 00:04:01,379 which is a lot of fun I'm up for some 84 00:04:05,330 --> 00:04:03,000 trouble 85 00:04:06,589 --> 00:04:05,340 can you explain what you're doing with 86 00:04:10,070 --> 00:04:06,599 your project and what that is for people 87 00:04:12,949 --> 00:04:10,080 who aren't familiar yeah so I had a show 88 00:04:15,050 --> 00:04:12,959 called UFO classified for many years and 89 00:04:19,189 --> 00:04:15,060 I've been doing my own personal research 90 00:04:21,050 --> 00:04:19,199 after I I left mufon and a while ago a 91 00:04:23,450 --> 00:04:21,060 few months ago Jack Brewer approached me 92 00:04:25,870 --> 00:04:23,460 and we've been talking and I've 93 00:04:29,150 --> 00:04:25,880 respected his work for quite some time 94 00:04:31,610 --> 00:04:29,160 and we just have such a great chemistry 95 00:04:34,550 --> 00:04:31,620 together and he he picks up things where 96 00:04:36,170 --> 00:04:34,560 I leave them and vice versa and we 97 00:04:38,210 --> 00:04:36,180 decided that we really wanted to make a 98 00:04:39,770 --> 00:04:38,220 difference in the topic because we've 99 00:04:42,290 --> 00:04:39,780 been doing it for so long and so we 100 00:04:45,050 --> 00:04:42,300 decided to form expanding Frontiers 101 00:04:47,270 --> 00:04:45,060 research which is a non-profit 102 00:04:49,969 --> 00:04:47,280 we had Barry Greenwood who was also 103 00:04:52,249 --> 00:04:49,979 working with us and then as we like I 104 00:04:54,170 --> 00:04:52,259 said just established get our foothold 105 00:04:57,290 --> 00:04:54,180 then we'll be bringing in additional 106 00:05:00,950 --> 00:04:57,300 researchers and people in my community 107 00:05:03,050 --> 00:05:00,960 here to help on the board uh with us and 108 00:05:05,510 --> 00:05:03,060 I'm excited to do great things not only 109 00:05:08,570 --> 00:05:05,520 in the UFO world but also exploring 110 00:05:11,390 --> 00:05:08,580 environmental issues uh political issues 111 00:05:12,950 --> 00:05:11,400 I also want to interview people in the 112 00:05:15,230 --> 00:05:12,960 community that make a difference some of 113 00:05:16,909 --> 00:05:15,240 my favorite people like musicians 114 00:05:18,890 --> 00:05:16,919 um people that are pushing the 115 00:05:20,749 --> 00:05:18,900 boundaries in in all sorts of ways so 116 00:05:24,409 --> 00:05:20,759 it's going to be really fun 117 00:05:26,689 --> 00:05:24,419 that sounds awesome yeah thanks 118 00:05:29,270 --> 00:05:26,699 yeah that's um that's really exciting 119 00:05:30,590 --> 00:05:29,280 and when you think about the components 120 00:05:32,749 --> 00:05:30,600 to this project are you thinking it's 121 00:05:35,810 --> 00:05:32,759 going to be like the website and the 122 00:05:36,590 --> 00:05:35,820 show and interviews like how are you 123 00:05:38,029 --> 00:05:36,600 thinking about all the different 124 00:05:38,870 --> 00:05:38,039 components here and how they work 125 00:05:41,510 --> 00:05:38,880 together 126 00:05:43,010 --> 00:05:41,520 so Jack is doing all the he's doing a 127 00:05:44,570 --> 00:05:43,020 tremendous amount and you wouldn't 128 00:05:46,610 --> 00:05:44,580 believe the stuff that we've got behind 129 00:05:48,590 --> 00:05:46,620 the scenes as far as the foia requests 130 00:05:50,749 --> 00:05:48,600 that he has done and the things that 131 00:05:53,689 --> 00:05:50,759 we're working on so Jack will be doing 132 00:05:55,790 --> 00:05:53,699 that and adding a new blog piece uh 133 00:05:58,550 --> 00:05:55,800 every week and then he'll also be using 134 00:06:00,230 --> 00:05:58,560 the UFO Trail you can find that and look 135 00:06:02,810 --> 00:06:00,240 at the other work that he does on the 136 00:06:04,610 --> 00:06:02,820 side when he's not he's just outgoing a 137 00:06:06,409 --> 00:06:04,620 million different directions I'll be 138 00:06:08,510 --> 00:06:06,419 doing the interviews and I'll be going 139 00:06:10,550 --> 00:06:08,520 around not only here you know Friday 140 00:06:12,290 --> 00:06:10,560 nights doing a live show it's not here 141 00:06:14,749 --> 00:06:12,300 Friday night but Friday night's doing a 142 00:06:17,749 --> 00:06:14,759 live show but also going to specific 143 00:06:21,350 --> 00:06:17,759 places to interview people and then also 144 00:06:23,029 --> 00:06:21,360 working with archivists to help enhance 145 00:06:25,129 --> 00:06:23,039 what I'm doing here as far as historical 146 00:06:28,909 --> 00:06:25,139 preservation and so it's going to be 147 00:06:30,110 --> 00:06:28,919 kind of a multi-layered project and I'm 148 00:06:32,029 --> 00:06:30,120 you know like I said I'm just looking 149 00:06:34,430 --> 00:06:32,039 forward to it because we each have 150 00:06:36,590 --> 00:06:34,440 different skill sets and I think it will 151 00:06:39,350 --> 00:06:36,600 be fun to pull in people like all of you 152 00:06:41,930 --> 00:06:39,360 to help move the project forward because 153 00:06:44,270 --> 00:06:41,940 I think very highly of the three of you 154 00:06:47,270 --> 00:06:44,280 and Steve and some of the Simon and 155 00:06:49,790 --> 00:06:47,280 great people I see and Peter in in chat 156 00:06:50,830 --> 00:06:49,800 so it's it's a positive positive move 157 00:06:54,170 --> 00:06:50,840 forward 158 00:06:58,550 --> 00:06:54,180 Erica this uh subject the UFO subject 159 00:07:01,370 --> 00:06:58,560 obviously it's very easy to become drawn 160 00:07:03,890 --> 00:07:01,380 in by people's stories and it's very 161 00:07:07,809 --> 00:07:03,900 hard to distinguish fact from fiction 162 00:07:10,730 --> 00:07:07,819 and we focus a lot in this show on this 163 00:07:13,370 --> 00:07:10,740 disintegration of consensus reality that 164 00:07:16,670 --> 00:07:13,380 we're seeing in the modern world and 165 00:07:19,850 --> 00:07:16,680 with your time spent studying such a 166 00:07:22,670 --> 00:07:19,860 challenging subject and producing new 167 00:07:25,370 --> 00:07:22,680 information for people to look at uh 168 00:07:27,469 --> 00:07:25,380 could you give me some examples of 169 00:07:29,510 --> 00:07:27,479 things that you've drawn as the most 170 00:07:32,029 --> 00:07:29,520 important lessons from your experience 171 00:07:33,650 --> 00:07:32,039 engaging with such a challenging subject 172 00:07:35,689 --> 00:07:33,660 to get to the heart of what's actually 173 00:07:38,390 --> 00:07:35,699 happening yeah that's a great question 174 00:07:40,430 --> 00:07:38,400 and as as we know I've I've been very 175 00:07:42,589 --> 00:07:40,440 open about some of the things that I've 176 00:07:45,469 --> 00:07:42,599 been through and you know for me this 177 00:07:47,150 --> 00:07:45,479 this was a personal journey and as I 178 00:07:48,770 --> 00:07:47,160 began experiencing more things and 179 00:07:50,629 --> 00:07:48,780 seeing things that were wrong with mufon 180 00:07:53,210 --> 00:07:50,639 seeing things that were wrong with 181 00:07:56,689 --> 00:07:53,220 abduction researchers quote unquote 182 00:07:59,870 --> 00:07:56,699 people that were basically preying upon 183 00:08:02,089 --> 00:07:59,880 really good people that have what they 184 00:08:04,309 --> 00:08:02,099 feel is an important story and are 185 00:08:08,089 --> 00:08:04,319 looking for information I just kind of 186 00:08:10,790 --> 00:08:08,099 felt that I needed to to to do things to 187 00:08:14,510 --> 00:08:10,800 show my own experiences to show how I've 188 00:08:16,730 --> 00:08:14,520 been manipulated and fooled and to be 189 00:08:18,230 --> 00:08:16,740 very open and Frank about that and to 190 00:08:20,570 --> 00:08:18,240 try to teach other people that hey when 191 00:08:23,210 --> 00:08:20,580 somebody's approaching you and saying 192 00:08:25,070 --> 00:08:23,220 you know we're this great scientist and 193 00:08:27,770 --> 00:08:25,080 we've been working behind the scenes for 194 00:08:29,930 --> 00:08:27,780 30 years that yet we put nothing forward 195 00:08:32,269 --> 00:08:29,940 but we think you're cool so we're going 196 00:08:34,130 --> 00:08:32,279 to have this little offline chat 197 00:08:36,170 --> 00:08:34,140 you've got to ask questions about that 198 00:08:38,930 --> 00:08:36,180 if somebody is coming to you and saying 199 00:08:41,029 --> 00:08:38,940 I'm this military you know this guy with 200 00:08:43,610 --> 00:08:41,039 top secret clearance and you're getting 201 00:08:45,470 --> 00:08:43,620 access to information and so on and so 202 00:08:47,690 --> 00:08:45,480 on you've got to say really because 203 00:08:49,550 --> 00:08:47,700 that's pretty much illegal so you might 204 00:08:53,150 --> 00:08:49,560 be you know in in trouble and I'm going 205 00:08:54,829 --> 00:08:53,160 to back away it's it's hard when we're 206 00:08:56,870 --> 00:08:54,839 in this kind of unknown 207 00:08:58,370 --> 00:08:56,880 you know subject and it's a wild west 208 00:09:00,949 --> 00:08:58,380 where we don't have people that have 209 00:09:02,570 --> 00:09:00,959 strong ethics and the leaders in the 210 00:09:04,490 --> 00:09:02,580 subject aren't calling people out it's 211 00:09:06,590 --> 00:09:04,500 really hard not to get lost 212 00:09:07,850 --> 00:09:06,600 in in this because you think you're you 213 00:09:10,009 --> 00:09:07,860 know having an adventure you think 214 00:09:12,590 --> 00:09:10,019 you're going to be solving all of these 215 00:09:14,449 --> 00:09:12,600 great puzzles and really you find 216 00:09:18,170 --> 00:09:14,459 yourself going down rabbit holes with 217 00:09:20,930 --> 00:09:18,180 people that are grifters or mentally ill 218 00:09:23,750 --> 00:09:20,940 have problems and that are people that 219 00:09:26,329 --> 00:09:23,760 are trying to shape a bigger narrative 220 00:09:28,670 --> 00:09:26,339 that we perhaps don't have all of the 221 00:09:31,130 --> 00:09:28,680 knowledge about and so it can be a 222 00:09:33,230 --> 00:09:31,140 dangerous subject if you don't have your 223 00:09:35,630 --> 00:09:33,240 bearings 224 00:09:37,490 --> 00:09:35,640 well and I'm curious just as one 225 00:09:40,130 --> 00:09:37,500 follow-up and then maybe we can move on 226 00:09:41,150 --> 00:09:40,140 but I'm curious uh you you touched on 227 00:09:45,050 --> 00:09:41,160 that 228 00:09:47,090 --> 00:09:45,060 feeling of exploration and diving into 229 00:09:49,910 --> 00:09:47,100 the unknown and it's sort of being a 230 00:09:51,290 --> 00:09:49,920 frontier of human knowledge as a subject 231 00:09:53,449 --> 00:09:51,300 and 232 00:09:56,690 --> 00:09:53,459 I love that part of it I think it is 233 00:09:58,430 --> 00:09:56,700 where sort of what we know is running up 234 00:10:00,910 --> 00:09:58,440 against what we are trying to still 235 00:10:04,310 --> 00:10:00,920 figure out and what in your life 236 00:10:06,829 --> 00:10:04,320 motivated you to grab onto this subject 237 00:10:09,590 --> 00:10:06,839 as a way of expressing that human 238 00:10:11,329 --> 00:10:09,600 instinct to explore the unknown 239 00:10:13,730 --> 00:10:11,339 you know what I've always I mean I 240 00:10:16,009 --> 00:10:13,740 remember being gosh I've been oh my 241 00:10:17,810 --> 00:10:16,019 maybe second or third grade and picking 242 00:10:19,370 --> 00:10:17,820 up a book on the subject with the UFO 243 00:10:22,870 --> 00:10:19,380 and I was just hooked and it was just 244 00:10:25,490 --> 00:10:22,880 downhill or uphill or wherever 245 00:10:26,930 --> 00:10:25,500 downhill up here wherever it went but it 246 00:10:30,769 --> 00:10:26,940 was just like one of those things that I 247 00:10:33,050 --> 00:10:30,779 just it excited something in me I feel 248 00:10:35,690 --> 00:10:33,060 that through my own personal experiences 249 00:10:38,449 --> 00:10:35,700 that the world isn't black and white as 250 00:10:40,329 --> 00:10:38,459 we know and there's so many things that 251 00:10:43,070 --> 00:10:40,339 take place that I still can't explain 252 00:10:45,170 --> 00:10:43,080 from my own personal journey and so I 253 00:10:47,210 --> 00:10:45,180 think this has been it's almost like a 254 00:10:49,730 --> 00:10:47,220 kind of a shamanic dismemberment so to 255 00:10:51,889 --> 00:10:49,740 speak like being excited going you know 256 00:10:53,990 --> 00:10:51,899 on this explorative adventure and trying 257 00:10:56,449 --> 00:10:54,000 to empower yourself and then getting 258 00:10:57,949 --> 00:10:56,459 knocked down and figuring things out and 259 00:11:00,350 --> 00:10:57,959 then seeing things with new eyes and so 260 00:11:03,230 --> 00:11:00,360 it's just it's been I love it and I love 261 00:11:05,750 --> 00:11:03,240 I love exploring it's been hard I would 262 00:11:07,550 --> 00:11:05,760 never wish what I have gone through on 263 00:11:09,470 --> 00:11:07,560 anybody that gets into the subject but 264 00:11:10,910 --> 00:11:09,480 learning lessons the hard way sometimes 265 00:11:13,250 --> 00:11:10,920 so 266 00:11:15,170 --> 00:11:13,260 now you mentioned uh just a minute ago 267 00:11:16,610 --> 00:11:15,180 that you formally worked with mufon 268 00:11:18,230 --> 00:11:16,620 could you expand on that a little bit in 269 00:11:20,630 --> 00:11:18,240 your uh your experiences with them 270 00:11:23,150 --> 00:11:20,640 because I've personally had uh some 271 00:11:25,250 --> 00:11:23,160 issues of my own I I'd like to hear kind 272 00:11:26,449 --> 00:11:25,260 of your side of that story I think of 273 00:11:28,850 --> 00:11:26,459 quite a few people 274 00:11:29,870 --> 00:11:28,860 um have and this isn't to say that there 275 00:11:31,790 --> 00:11:29,880 aren't really good people in the 276 00:11:33,290 --> 00:11:31,800 organization because there are you know 277 00:11:37,850 --> 00:11:33,300 we all know that 278 00:11:39,710 --> 00:11:37,860 um I when I first back in 2013 had a 279 00:11:42,350 --> 00:11:39,720 citing sightings that I thought were 280 00:11:46,009 --> 00:11:42,360 unusual and so I reported them to Peter 281 00:11:47,870 --> 00:11:46,019 Davenport uh first and then I went to I 282 00:11:50,030 --> 00:11:47,880 found mufon just by doing some online 283 00:11:52,910 --> 00:11:50,040 research and I wanted to know what it 284 00:11:55,009 --> 00:11:52,920 was I live in Salt Lake City and I'm 80 285 00:11:58,069 --> 00:11:55,019 miles away from dugway Proving Ground 286 00:12:00,290 --> 00:11:58,079 which is you know I mean they're doing a 287 00:12:02,150 --> 00:12:00,300 lot out there I I also care about my 288 00:12:03,769 --> 00:12:02,160 community and if something's flying 289 00:12:07,610 --> 00:12:03,779 around in our skies I would like to know 290 00:12:12,110 --> 00:12:07,620 what it is and so I found mufon the 291 00:12:14,210 --> 00:12:12,120 chapter was a mess here and so I 292 00:12:16,610 --> 00:12:14,220 approached the person I approach mufon 293 00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:16,620 and then we had a state director that 294 00:12:23,269 --> 00:12:20,880 was back in the Midwest and so I took 295 00:12:25,370 --> 00:12:23,279 over and became the state director and 296 00:12:28,550 --> 00:12:25,380 had some pretty amazing cases that made 297 00:12:30,530 --> 00:12:28,560 move on top 10 cases of the year and 298 00:12:35,030 --> 00:12:30,540 whatever that means 299 00:12:39,530 --> 00:12:35,040 and then you know I was subject to some 300 00:12:41,690 --> 00:12:39,540 um bullying and sexual harassment and I 301 00:12:44,090 --> 00:12:41,700 also at that point in time was working 302 00:12:46,670 --> 00:12:44,100 with mufon headquarters and trying to 303 00:12:48,949 --> 00:12:46,680 put you know a new image out maybe 304 00:12:50,870 --> 00:12:48,959 something that didn't you know wasn't 305 00:12:52,730 --> 00:12:50,880 it was resonating with younger people 306 00:12:55,610 --> 00:12:52,740 and 307 00:12:58,550 --> 00:12:55,620 um I began to ask questions about why 308 00:13:00,350 --> 00:12:58,560 after 50 years of collecting data has 309 00:13:02,030 --> 00:13:00,360 there been nothing put forward to the 310 00:13:04,129 --> 00:13:02,040 public you know you've got all this 311 00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:04,139 information what are you doing with it 312 00:13:10,129 --> 00:13:08,160 besides having you know mufon lectures 313 00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:10,139 where people are collecting money under 314 00:13:14,690 --> 00:13:13,200 the table and you know not operating the 315 00:13:16,430 --> 00:13:14,700 way they should and then they're also 316 00:13:18,530 --> 00:13:16,440 promoting speakers that are completely 317 00:13:19,970 --> 00:13:18,540 up in the night and so I was asking 318 00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:19,980 these questions and that didn't bode 319 00:13:25,430 --> 00:13:21,200 well 320 00:13:27,410 --> 00:13:25,440 for me and so you know I after an 321 00:13:29,569 --> 00:13:27,420 incident that happened 322 00:13:30,949 --> 00:13:29,579 um I resigned along with my assistant 323 00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:30,959 state director 324 00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:34,800 and I honestly have not looked back you 325 00:13:39,290 --> 00:13:37,440 know it it was a good thing for me to 326 00:13:41,569 --> 00:13:39,300 get the experience to see the lay of the 327 00:13:43,870 --> 00:13:41,579 land and then move forward onto bigger 328 00:13:46,670 --> 00:13:43,880 and better things like Skinwalker Ranch 329 00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:46,680 yeah it sounds like we have some fairly 330 00:13:50,810 --> 00:13:48,720 similar experiences and similar to what 331 00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:50,820 I hear and that is a good question that 332 00:13:54,290 --> 00:13:52,800 you raise what are they doing with all 333 00:13:56,629 --> 00:13:54,300 this information they collect because 334 00:13:58,250 --> 00:13:56,639 it's a similar situation with me I um 335 00:13:59,810 --> 00:13:58,260 the case I investigated they have 336 00:14:02,990 --> 00:13:59,820 information that they're not releasing 337 00:14:05,329 --> 00:14:03,000 so it seems to be kind of a uh a 338 00:14:07,310 --> 00:14:05,339 consistency with them and I 339 00:14:09,530 --> 00:14:07,320 it doesn't surprise me that after you're 340 00:14:11,150 --> 00:14:09,540 citing they were the first two that you 341 00:14:13,550 --> 00:14:11,160 found because they do present themselves 342 00:14:15,650 --> 00:14:13,560 in any way they can 343 00:14:17,449 --> 00:14:15,660 um any type of even local interest 344 00:14:19,610 --> 00:14:17,459 pieces they they have a representative 345 00:14:21,170 --> 00:14:19,620 there so they are kind of like the 346 00:14:23,870 --> 00:14:21,180 household name if you could call it that 347 00:14:26,050 --> 00:14:23,880 of UFO organizations and yet what's 348 00:14:29,449 --> 00:14:26,060 coming out of there 349 00:14:32,210 --> 00:14:29,459 well a few kooky people 350 00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:32,220 um you know and you know again it's like 351 00:14:38,509 --> 00:14:34,800 you've got an organization that is 352 00:14:41,750 --> 00:14:38,519 benefiting mankind uh you know love that 353 00:14:44,810 --> 00:14:41,760 one but you also I mean it's like you're 354 00:14:47,210 --> 00:14:44,820 a scientific organization and where are 355 00:14:49,910 --> 00:14:47,220 where's your research you know what I 356 00:14:51,949 --> 00:14:49,920 mean where's the actual science 357 00:14:54,110 --> 00:14:51,959 well I mean I think they're too busy 358 00:14:57,590 --> 00:14:54,120 saying that demons are here to rule the 359 00:15:00,290 --> 00:14:57,600 Earth and and you know you're I mean I 360 00:15:01,970 --> 00:15:00,300 could go on and on but I mean there are 361 00:15:04,009 --> 00:15:01,980 like I said they're good 362 00:15:06,050 --> 00:15:04,019 um good people in the organization good 363 00:15:08,530 --> 00:15:06,060 people running chapters but then there 364 00:15:12,530 --> 00:15:08,540 are chapters that are promoting really 365 00:15:14,689 --> 00:15:12,540 anti-semitic uh really negative things 366 00:15:16,730 --> 00:15:14,699 that shouldn't be tolerated in a 367 00:15:19,670 --> 00:15:16,740 non-profit that is allegedly dedicated 368 00:15:22,210 --> 00:15:19,680 to science yeah right may I uh just 369 00:15:24,829 --> 00:15:22,220 having had experience in a variety of 370 00:15:26,810 --> 00:15:24,839 Institutions and experiencing 371 00:15:28,870 --> 00:15:26,820 frustration trying to change 372 00:15:31,189 --> 00:15:28,880 institutional culture when it 373 00:15:32,449 --> 00:15:31,199 contradicts the best available evidence 374 00:15:34,970 --> 00:15:32,459 on trying to achieve what the 375 00:15:38,389 --> 00:15:34,980 organization set out to do uh I'm 376 00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:38,399 curious what what was it at mufon if you 377 00:15:43,069 --> 00:15:40,320 don't mind saying that specifically 378 00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:43,079 motivated you so strongly to actually 379 00:15:48,110 --> 00:15:45,600 just give up it all together on the 380 00:15:50,150 --> 00:15:48,120 biggest organization that is out there 381 00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:50,160 trying to move things off forward on 382 00:15:53,150 --> 00:15:51,600 this subject 383 00:15:56,689 --> 00:15:53,160 you know I think it was a it was 384 00:15:58,189 --> 00:15:56,699 multifaceted it was being frustrated 385 00:16:00,350 --> 00:15:58,199 with not 386 00:16:01,850 --> 00:16:00,360 making the Headway that I wanted to make 387 00:16:04,730 --> 00:16:01,860 I was doing some really really good 388 00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:04,740 things and I know that because I came 389 00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:07,440 out of nowhere that I was a target for a 390 00:16:13,449 --> 00:16:10,079 handful of individuals that are clearly 391 00:16:16,009 --> 00:16:13,459 probably need to to get some counseling 392 00:16:20,210 --> 00:16:16,019 or get a bigger sandbox whatever thing 393 00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:20,220 no we all know yes yes we do but um you 394 00:16:26,150 --> 00:16:22,399 know I I 395 00:16:29,870 --> 00:16:26,160 we had a really a big case and it was a 396 00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:29,880 American Airlines sighting that was seen 397 00:16:34,370 --> 00:16:32,160 uh was overheard by somebody that I know 398 00:16:37,129 --> 00:16:34,380 and there was a flight crew coming 399 00:16:38,810 --> 00:16:37,139 across Nephi Utah and they witnessed an 400 00:16:40,430 --> 00:16:38,820 orange allegedly an orange object 401 00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:40,440 underneath the plane that was keeping 402 00:16:45,889 --> 00:16:42,959 Pace with them we did my assistant state 403 00:16:48,590 --> 00:16:45,899 director and I and Bill Puckett did 404 00:16:51,050 --> 00:16:48,600 amazing research we did foia got the 405 00:16:53,810 --> 00:16:51,060 flight data found out I mean this was 406 00:16:56,449 --> 00:16:53,820 there were radar returns in a seven and 407 00:16:58,730 --> 00:16:56,459 eight mile radius for over half an hour 408 00:17:01,310 --> 00:16:58,740 and there was no ground clutter there 409 00:17:02,870 --> 00:17:01,320 were no other means I mean it was we 410 00:17:05,510 --> 00:17:02,880 rolled out a lot of things and had a lot 411 00:17:06,829 --> 00:17:05,520 of good people analyze the data and 412 00:17:09,169 --> 00:17:06,839 there was also a portion of the audio 413 00:17:10,970 --> 00:17:09,179 that we got back that was redacted which 414 00:17:14,030 --> 00:17:10,980 was interesting but there was a specific 415 00:17:16,549 --> 00:17:14,040 section that did mention this and so we 416 00:17:19,309 --> 00:17:16,559 put together this wonderful report that 417 00:17:20,809 --> 00:17:19,319 according to other people one specific 418 00:17:24,590 --> 00:17:20,819 person on the board of directors from 419 00:17:27,409 --> 00:17:24,600 mufon one that is now with SCU said was 420 00:17:30,409 --> 00:17:27,419 one of the best cases of of the move on 421 00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:30,419 history and so we had this going on and 422 00:17:35,150 --> 00:17:33,600 then I was asked to speak at a mufon or 423 00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:35,160 not at a move on conference but at a 424 00:17:40,370 --> 00:17:38,640 conference that as somebody who was a 425 00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:40,380 spokesperson from mufon 426 00:17:46,909 --> 00:17:43,140 I was at that time on a different radio 427 00:17:51,950 --> 00:17:46,919 station or net whatever where um I had a 428 00:17:53,810 --> 00:17:51,960 show on a certain Network online and I 429 00:17:56,029 --> 00:17:53,820 was representing mufon there and 430 00:17:58,310 --> 00:17:56,039 bringing people on and behind the scenes 431 00:17:59,450 --> 00:17:58,320 you know in Shadow said hey this is a 432 00:18:01,010 --> 00:17:59,460 person that I'm bringing on the show 433 00:18:02,029 --> 00:18:01,020 because I'm speaking in a mufon 434 00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:02,039 conference 435 00:18:06,650 --> 00:18:04,559 and the station owner said you know 436 00:18:08,930 --> 00:18:06,660 you're not bringing that effing you know 437 00:18:10,669 --> 00:18:08,940 so and so on and I mean just things that 438 00:18:12,890 --> 00:18:10,679 I'm sitting there and I'm watching other 439 00:18:15,169 --> 00:18:12,900 people that are very high up in the 440 00:18:16,789 --> 00:18:15,179 community you know just just banter 441 00:18:18,650 --> 00:18:16,799 going back and forth and I was like okay 442 00:18:19,970 --> 00:18:18,660 this is you know first of all I'm paying 443 00:18:22,970 --> 00:18:19,980 for this show 444 00:18:25,850 --> 00:18:22,980 and you know second of all you shouldn't 445 00:18:28,970 --> 00:18:25,860 be speaking about another person this 446 00:18:31,789 --> 00:18:28,980 way and it was concerning to me so I 447 00:18:34,310 --> 00:18:31,799 went back to the communications director 448 00:18:36,590 --> 00:18:34,320 Roger Marsh and also Jan harzan and I 449 00:18:38,210 --> 00:18:36,600 said you've asked me to speak on behalf 450 00:18:40,430 --> 00:18:38,220 of your organization 451 00:18:43,310 --> 00:18:40,440 what would you like me to do should I go 452 00:18:44,930 --> 00:18:43,320 tell this conference organizer that I'm 453 00:18:48,409 --> 00:18:44,940 not allowed to interview her on my show 454 00:18:50,270 --> 00:18:48,419 to promote mufon when this station had 455 00:18:51,169 --> 00:18:50,280 move on radio as well it was very 456 00:18:53,090 --> 00:18:51,179 strange 457 00:18:55,789 --> 00:18:53,100 and within a half an hour of the station 458 00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:55,799 owner called me up and just said how 459 00:19:02,330 --> 00:18:58,799 could you do this you effing you know I 460 00:19:04,850 --> 00:19:02,340 mean it was a 20-minute diatribe of the 461 00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:04,860 most hateful vile unprofessional 462 00:19:10,610 --> 00:19:08,160 stuff that I've ever heard and so when 463 00:19:12,590 --> 00:19:10,620 that happened I you know talked to my 464 00:19:14,570 --> 00:19:12,600 assistant state director and I could see 465 00:19:16,250 --> 00:19:14,580 that they were also there were a couple 466 00:19:19,789 --> 00:19:16,260 people involved in mufon who were trying 467 00:19:21,549 --> 00:19:19,799 to discredit this really solid case and 468 00:19:24,770 --> 00:19:21,559 so we made the decision at that point 469 00:19:27,529 --> 00:19:24,780 that we would both resign you know in in 470 00:19:29,870 --> 00:19:27,539 protest of of our treatment of the way 471 00:19:34,250 --> 00:19:29,880 that mufon ineffectively handled this 472 00:19:35,930 --> 00:19:34,260 situation you know shocking and so it 473 00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:35,940 was a it was pretty big thing there's an 474 00:19:41,270 --> 00:19:38,400 article in Newsweek about some of the 475 00:19:43,310 --> 00:19:41,280 goings-ons in mufon and there they 476 00:19:45,830 --> 00:19:43,320 interviewed me and a couple other people 477 00:19:48,409 --> 00:19:45,840 about the John Venture Fiasco about 478 00:19:50,630 --> 00:19:48,419 racism and and sexism in the 479 00:19:53,029 --> 00:19:50,640 organization 480 00:19:55,130 --> 00:19:53,039 but 481 00:19:57,289 --> 00:19:55,140 um and one of the questions I have for 482 00:19:59,090 --> 00:19:57,299 you Erica is is almost more of a 483 00:20:01,370 --> 00:19:59,100 personal slash mentorship kind of 484 00:20:03,770 --> 00:20:01,380 question which is 485 00:20:06,110 --> 00:20:03,780 um when you think about the kind of new 486 00:20:07,610 --> 00:20:06,120 generation of researchers and 487 00:20:08,990 --> 00:20:07,620 individuals who are interested in this 488 00:20:12,169 --> 00:20:09,000 subject 489 00:20:14,270 --> 00:20:12,179 what kind of advice would you give us 490 00:20:15,710 --> 00:20:14,280 um both in this field and on a broader 491 00:20:18,529 --> 00:20:15,720 scale 492 00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:18,539 you know I think the biggest and I'm 493 00:20:22,430 --> 00:20:20,640 this is why I'm so impressed with all of 494 00:20:24,890 --> 00:20:22,440 you is that you have the intelligence 495 00:20:26,090 --> 00:20:24,900 and the foresight to to step back and 496 00:20:28,669 --> 00:20:26,100 look at things and say wait a minute 497 00:20:32,510 --> 00:20:28,679 something's not right here and everybody 498 00:20:34,789 --> 00:20:32,520 should be incredibly skeptical of people 499 00:20:38,270 --> 00:20:34,799 that are are in this subject and I hate 500 00:20:40,610 --> 00:20:38,280 to say that but I have over the years 501 00:20:41,930 --> 00:20:40,620 I've met people that I thought were 502 00:20:43,190 --> 00:20:41,940 really good people and I still believe 503 00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:43,200 they're good people but are so 504 00:20:47,270 --> 00:20:44,820 completely misguided 505 00:20:49,789 --> 00:20:47,280 that you know you get you lose your 506 00:20:52,010 --> 00:20:49,799 bearings and there's nothing your own 507 00:20:52,850 --> 00:20:52,020 life isn't worth going down a rabbit 508 00:20:55,450 --> 00:20:52,860 hole where you're going to lose your 509 00:20:58,310 --> 00:20:55,460 friends and your family and your career 510 00:21:00,470 --> 00:20:58,320 to explore a subject that in the end 511 00:21:02,810 --> 00:21:00,480 can't be verified and so just make sure 512 00:21:05,450 --> 00:21:02,820 you're you're using logic and that 513 00:21:07,310 --> 00:21:05,460 you're pulling away from ufology and 514 00:21:09,710 --> 00:21:07,320 you're examining looking at you know 515 00:21:11,930 --> 00:21:09,720 what I've done some of the people and 516 00:21:15,110 --> 00:21:11,940 their business relations their political 517 00:21:16,970 --> 00:21:15,120 relations and look at things from a 518 00:21:19,549 --> 00:21:16,980 broader perspective instead of just that 519 00:21:22,549 --> 00:21:19,559 UFO lens and you're going to find out a 520 00:21:25,010 --> 00:21:22,559 lot of a lot of interesting things 521 00:21:25,730 --> 00:21:25,020 so but you guys are doing such a great 522 00:21:28,549 --> 00:21:25,740 job 523 00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:28,559 I am I distinctly remember my first kind 524 00:21:32,690 --> 00:21:30,720 of brush with drama in the community I'd 525 00:21:34,850 --> 00:21:32,700 only been there been in it I guess for a 526 00:21:37,370 --> 00:21:34,860 couple months and I reached out to our 527 00:21:39,409 --> 00:21:37,380 mutual friend Matthew Riot and I said 528 00:21:42,110 --> 00:21:39,419 something like what is with people in 529 00:21:44,090 --> 00:21:42,120 ufology like what is their problem and 530 00:21:46,250 --> 00:21:44,100 he said something that I think of all 531 00:21:48,649 --> 00:21:46,260 the time and he said Leah people don't 532 00:21:51,470 --> 00:21:48,659 get into this because they're happy 533 00:21:53,390 --> 00:21:51,480 um and like I have carried that in like 534 00:21:55,669 --> 00:21:53,400 around with me as I've navigated this 535 00:21:57,169 --> 00:21:55,679 space because I do think like you do 536 00:21:58,970 --> 00:21:57,179 have people that are purely interested 537 00:22:01,549 --> 00:21:58,980 in this subject but this also becomes 538 00:22:04,130 --> 00:22:01,559 like the perfect foil for like all 539 00:22:07,490 --> 00:22:04,140 variety of personality disorders mental 540 00:22:08,930 --> 00:22:07,500 illness anti-social Behavior whatever 541 00:22:10,510 --> 00:22:08,940 um and I think it's there's always this 542 00:22:12,350 --> 00:22:10,520 tension between 543 00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:12,360 people's 544 00:22:16,490 --> 00:22:14,460 um ego entanglement with the subject 545 00:22:19,190 --> 00:22:16,500 because this feels like such a deeply 546 00:22:20,270 --> 00:22:19,200 personal subject for so many people and 547 00:22:22,850 --> 00:22:20,280 then 548 00:22:25,070 --> 00:22:22,860 um I would say the way people act maybe 549 00:22:27,529 --> 00:22:25,080 in the real world the non-ufology world 550 00:22:29,510 --> 00:22:27,539 and how there's quite the um quite the 551 00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:29,520 disparity in terms of the behavior that 552 00:22:32,930 --> 00:22:30,720 can be tolerated in this community 553 00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:32,940 versus what you would see sort of In The 554 00:22:36,350 --> 00:22:34,320 World At Large 555 00:22:37,610 --> 00:22:36,360 and that is so true I mean that's I just 556 00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:37,620 look at the way some of these people 557 00:22:41,930 --> 00:22:39,840 behave and 558 00:22:43,310 --> 00:22:41,940 um I you know I mean it's like I I can't 559 00:22:45,950 --> 00:22:43,320 believe they've actually maintained a 560 00:22:47,990 --> 00:22:45,960 job for their adult life you know right 561 00:22:50,750 --> 00:22:48,000 so that they're fun behaving people yeah 562 00:22:52,669 --> 00:22:50,760 I mean you don't 563 00:22:55,310 --> 00:22:52,679 um I mean I guess you do now we live in 564 00:22:57,470 --> 00:22:55,320 a world where bullying online trolling 565 00:22:58,850 --> 00:22:57,480 and things like that are part and parcel 566 00:23:01,310 --> 00:22:58,860 for what you get when you go on to 567 00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:01,320 certain platforms but I mean in in a 568 00:23:04,789 --> 00:23:03,000 professional setting that's just not 569 00:23:06,350 --> 00:23:04,799 appropriate sexual harassment is never 570 00:23:09,049 --> 00:23:06,360 appropriate 571 00:23:11,090 --> 00:23:09,059 um telling people feeling people full of 572 00:23:13,970 --> 00:23:11,100 um ideas that that can potentially harm 573 00:23:15,529 --> 00:23:13,980 them is it's not a way to go to and that 574 00:23:18,649 --> 00:23:15,539 you know also 575 00:23:20,029 --> 00:23:18,659 you know brings me to a point that I 576 00:23:23,210 --> 00:23:20,039 wanted to make about the Skinwalker 577 00:23:25,850 --> 00:23:23,220 Ranch thing and I really feel very 578 00:23:27,529 --> 00:23:25,860 strongly that when you've got a show 579 00:23:29,690 --> 00:23:27,539 like that and you've got people like 580 00:23:32,210 --> 00:23:29,700 Travis Taylor who are going out into 581 00:23:34,669 --> 00:23:32,220 public and Brandon fugle and Tom 582 00:23:37,070 --> 00:23:34,679 Winterton and saying this is absolutely 583 00:23:38,450 --> 00:23:37,080 real that these things are going home 584 00:23:41,210 --> 00:23:38,460 with people they're causing cancer 585 00:23:44,270 --> 00:23:41,220 they're killing people and none of that 586 00:23:46,430 --> 00:23:44,280 can be verified then you know we've got 587 00:23:48,529 --> 00:23:46,440 a big problem here and we need to hold 588 00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:48,539 people like that accountable when 589 00:23:52,850 --> 00:23:50,640 they're giving information out that is 590 00:23:56,570 --> 00:23:52,860 absolutely unverified and that could 591 00:23:58,010 --> 00:23:56,580 potentially uh influence a person and a 592 00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:58,020 group of people I think that's pretty 593 00:24:03,470 --> 00:24:00,240 deplorable they need to give themselves 594 00:24:06,770 --> 00:24:03,480 an out and say okay this might not be 595 00:24:09,409 --> 00:24:06,780 this is a reality show but that's not 596 00:24:11,810 --> 00:24:09,419 happening and and P we need to to expect 597 00:24:13,850 --> 00:24:11,820 that from people who are allegedly 598 00:24:16,490 --> 00:24:13,860 leading the way in this subject 599 00:24:18,350 --> 00:24:16,500 in a subject where there's no like true 600 00:24:20,630 --> 00:24:18,360 authority figures or 601 00:24:23,029 --> 00:24:20,640 um actual answers it's easy for people 602 00:24:24,529 --> 00:24:23,039 to kind of step in and offer those to 603 00:24:26,570 --> 00:24:24,539 people who are looking for it and just 604 00:24:28,850 --> 00:24:26,580 kind of reinforce that confirmation bias 605 00:24:31,310 --> 00:24:28,860 and it's easy to get wrapped up in it 606 00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:31,320 and follow it along 607 00:24:34,970 --> 00:24:33,120 um yeah I mean we you see that happen it 608 00:24:37,250 --> 00:24:34,980 seems to happen in Cycles throughout the 609 00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:37,260 history of ufology and it's still going 610 00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:39,600 on I mean that is something we have to 611 00:24:43,730 --> 00:24:41,700 kind of remind ourselves there are no 612 00:24:46,610 --> 00:24:43,740 real experts aside from the history 613 00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:46,620 there are no uh immediate answers or 614 00:24:49,370 --> 00:24:48,240 instant gratification and things like 615 00:24:51,049 --> 00:24:49,380 this 616 00:24:54,110 --> 00:24:51,059 um but that's that's why I think your 617 00:24:56,510 --> 00:24:54,120 archival project going forward is is so 618 00:24:58,610 --> 00:24:56,520 important because you can when you when 619 00:25:00,470 --> 00:24:58,620 you view the history on a bigger scale 620 00:25:02,690 --> 00:25:00,480 you can kind of see these patterns and 621 00:25:05,090 --> 00:25:02,700 see these people who kind of take that 622 00:25:08,750 --> 00:25:05,100 roles and offer and kind of act in those 623 00:25:10,370 --> 00:25:08,760 uh those positions of pseudo authority 624 00:25:12,169 --> 00:25:10,380 figures and stuff like that right yeah 625 00:25:13,789 --> 00:25:12,179 I'm really looking forward to what 626 00:25:15,590 --> 00:25:13,799 you're working on yeah thank you I 627 00:25:18,289 --> 00:25:15,600 appreciate that and that I mean that's a 628 00:25:20,750 --> 00:25:18,299 great great way to talk about the 629 00:25:23,149 --> 00:25:20,760 archive for me I feel very lucky that I 630 00:25:25,730 --> 00:25:23,159 have received that I've gotten what I 631 00:25:27,350 --> 00:25:25,740 have here because I definitely believe 632 00:25:29,450 --> 00:25:27,360 that there are people that would like to 633 00:25:31,310 --> 00:25:29,460 sweep that information up and then hide 634 00:25:36,049 --> 00:25:31,320 it under the rug or we've been hiding 635 00:25:37,370 --> 00:25:36,059 UFO data for decade after decade and so 636 00:25:38,930 --> 00:25:37,380 for me 637 00:25:42,409 --> 00:25:38,940 um to look at the personal 638 00:25:45,470 --> 00:25:42,419 correspondence between and ruffle and 639 00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:45,480 major Donald Kehoe or you know some of 640 00:25:49,610 --> 00:25:46,799 the other people that were involved in 641 00:25:51,470 --> 00:25:49,620 nycap or James McDonald and certain 642 00:25:53,930 --> 00:25:51,480 figures in the subject back in the the 643 00:25:57,049 --> 00:25:53,940 60s to to look at their personal 644 00:25:58,909 --> 00:25:57,059 correspondence is so telling and it is 645 00:26:01,250 --> 00:25:58,919 so important because there's a whole 646 00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:01,260 world that a lot of people didn't want 647 00:26:06,169 --> 00:26:04,320 you to find out about and they want to 648 00:26:08,630 --> 00:26:06,179 kind of push down important information 649 00:26:10,610 --> 00:26:08,640 about figures like heinek and and things 650 00:26:13,070 --> 00:26:10,620 like that because they want to make sure 651 00:26:16,370 --> 00:26:13,080 that this subject is you know looking as 652 00:26:18,890 --> 00:26:16,380 bright and shiny as it can so other 653 00:26:20,810 --> 00:26:18,900 people can make money and sweep up data 654 00:26:23,090 --> 00:26:20,820 and you know so I mean this this 655 00:26:25,970 --> 00:26:23,100 historical archive is really important 656 00:26:29,149 --> 00:26:25,980 to get in in the right hands and I'm 657 00:26:31,070 --> 00:26:29,159 telling you I'm not seeing I have a 658 00:26:33,470 --> 00:26:31,080 concern I've got some concerns about 659 00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:33,480 that so 660 00:26:40,789 --> 00:26:38,940 I am I Luis Luis caitano who's normally 661 00:26:42,529 --> 00:26:40,799 are I would say our fifth wheel or would 662 00:26:44,930 --> 00:26:42,539 be our fifth wheel tonight 663 00:26:47,210 --> 00:26:44,940 um he is here in spirit if not 664 00:26:48,649 --> 00:26:47,220 um corporeally but he left me a couple 665 00:26:49,730 --> 00:26:48,659 of questions that I wanted to raise with 666 00:26:52,190 --> 00:26:49,740 you 667 00:26:54,230 --> 00:26:52,200 um and the first one is pretty direct 668 00:26:56,149 --> 00:26:54,240 and straightforward which is 669 00:26:58,789 --> 00:26:56,159 um do you consider ufology to be 670 00:27:00,710 --> 00:26:58,799 irredeemably corrupt and if so what do 671 00:27:01,730 --> 00:27:00,720 you think explains this 672 00:27:04,450 --> 00:27:01,740 yeah 673 00:27:07,490 --> 00:27:04,460 wow you know I mean that is 674 00:27:10,850 --> 00:27:07,500 trying to be plugging for his blog which 675 00:27:12,950 --> 00:27:10,860 is ufology is corrupt.com I love him I 676 00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:12,960 think he's missing the world of him he's 677 00:27:16,430 --> 00:27:15,600 a treasure yeah to be clear it is really 678 00:27:19,850 --> 00:27:16,440 really 679 00:27:21,289 --> 00:27:19,860 um love this I think that um 680 00:27:22,970 --> 00:27:21,299 you know this is a question I ask myself 681 00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:22,980 every night before I go to bed you know 682 00:27:27,049 --> 00:27:24,480 like and I I sit here and I look around 683 00:27:30,049 --> 00:27:27,059 at all these books and I just think oh 684 00:27:32,450 --> 00:27:30,059 you know it's it's can be overwhelming 685 00:27:34,430 --> 00:27:32,460 and you don't see sometimes the light at 686 00:27:36,710 --> 00:27:34,440 the end of the tunnel 687 00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:36,720 um and it can be a you know that I I 688 00:27:42,409 --> 00:27:39,120 think a couple weeks ago two months ago 689 00:27:44,090 --> 00:27:42,419 a year ago I was ready to walk away 690 00:27:46,909 --> 00:27:44,100 um from the subject because it is so 691 00:27:47,510 --> 00:27:46,919 negative in a lot of ways 692 00:27:49,610 --> 00:27:47,520 um 693 00:27:53,450 --> 00:27:49,620 do I think it's redeemable I think when 694 00:27:56,090 --> 00:27:53,460 I look at all of you and Steve long and 695 00:27:58,310 --> 00:27:56,100 and some of these people you know it's I 696 00:28:00,470 --> 00:27:58,320 have to say There's Hope because there 697 00:28:02,330 --> 00:28:00,480 are people that aren't going to step 698 00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:02,340 aside they're not going to be silenced 699 00:28:07,909 --> 00:28:05,640 they're not going to be intimidated by 700 00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:07,919 you know this this group of of online 701 00:28:13,610 --> 00:28:10,799 trolls and people in the UFO hierarchy 702 00:28:16,250 --> 00:28:13,620 we want the truth we have 703 00:28:18,590 --> 00:28:16,260 um you know we I really feel and I've 704 00:28:21,289 --> 00:28:18,600 like to hope I'm Don Quixote sometimes 705 00:28:23,210 --> 00:28:21,299 but I like to feel that we can move this 706 00:28:25,549 --> 00:28:23,220 forward and we have to do that in a way 707 00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:25,559 where we're exposing like you mentioned 708 00:28:30,409 --> 00:28:27,840 Nick we're exposing the fact that this 709 00:28:33,049 --> 00:28:30,419 this kind of nonsense has been going on 710 00:28:34,970 --> 00:28:33,059 decade after decade it's it's taking 711 00:28:37,909 --> 00:28:34,980 place from the same group of people 712 00:28:40,669 --> 00:28:37,919 basically who are getting up there in in 713 00:28:43,730 --> 00:28:40,679 the years but you know it's like it's 714 00:28:46,610 --> 00:28:43,740 it's just being repackaged so let's get 715 00:28:49,090 --> 00:28:46,620 it together let's move forward I'm very 716 00:28:51,769 --> 00:28:49,100 stoked about the project with Jack 717 00:28:53,390 --> 00:28:51,779 and I think with you what you guys are 718 00:28:55,250 --> 00:28:53,400 doing I think there is a positive 719 00:28:56,690 --> 00:28:55,260 momentum and so that gives that does 720 00:28:58,269 --> 00:28:56,700 give me hope 721 00:29:00,310 --> 00:28:58,279 praise the Lord 722 00:29:02,810 --> 00:29:00,320 thank you 723 00:29:04,430 --> 00:29:02,820 someone in the comments asked if this is 724 00:29:07,310 --> 00:29:04,440 uh this archive is going to be digitally 725 00:29:10,610 --> 00:29:07,320 available in the future oh yeah yes I am 726 00:29:13,490 --> 00:29:10,620 digitizing it every almost every day 727 00:29:15,289 --> 00:29:13,500 it's a big project and you know it does 728 00:29:18,110 --> 00:29:15,299 take a lot of 729 00:29:20,149 --> 00:29:18,120 um we're trying to raise funding for for 730 00:29:22,370 --> 00:29:20,159 that because you need professional 731 00:29:24,529 --> 00:29:22,380 equipment scanners you need a lot of 732 00:29:25,789 --> 00:29:24,539 storage for your computer and then when 733 00:29:27,169 --> 00:29:25,799 it comes to and Jack and I've been 734 00:29:30,110 --> 00:29:27,179 having this conversation when it comes 735 00:29:31,310 --> 00:29:30,120 to putting that information forward to 736 00:29:33,649 --> 00:29:31,320 the public 737 00:29:35,990 --> 00:29:33,659 um it's it takes it's going to take some 738 00:29:38,210 --> 00:29:36,000 doing it's going to take money a lot of 739 00:29:39,710 --> 00:29:38,220 uh efforts behind the scene but that's 740 00:29:41,930 --> 00:29:39,720 that's what our plan is that's what I'm 741 00:29:44,210 --> 00:29:41,940 trying to do because it people need to 742 00:29:45,889 --> 00:29:44,220 see this good bad or ugly they need to 743 00:29:48,110 --> 00:29:45,899 say yeah absolutely and on the flip side 744 00:29:51,110 --> 00:29:48,120 to uh kind of the negativity that's 745 00:29:52,610 --> 00:29:51,120 visible throughout the decades um these 746 00:29:54,590 --> 00:29:52,620 digital digital archives and 747 00:29:56,510 --> 00:29:54,600 preservation of old material is really 748 00:29:58,130 --> 00:29:56,520 important for independent researchers 749 00:30:02,029 --> 00:29:58,140 even like myself 750 00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:02,039 um who and the beginning of my kind of 751 00:30:06,049 --> 00:30:03,840 search and research of the case I'm 752 00:30:08,570 --> 00:30:06,059 looking into leaned heavily on the uh 753 00:30:11,090 --> 00:30:08,580 the archives the archives really 754 00:30:13,370 --> 00:30:11,100 unexplained sorry the AFU the one in 755 00:30:16,130 --> 00:30:13,380 Sweden not the one in Texas correct yeah 756 00:30:17,930 --> 00:30:16,140 the one in Sweden which uh just their 757 00:30:20,930 --> 00:30:17,940 new slipping service alone was was 758 00:30:22,970 --> 00:30:20,940 extremely helpful and like these these 759 00:30:25,610 --> 00:30:22,980 kind of assets are extremely valuable 760 00:30:28,130 --> 00:30:25,620 for independent researchers like myself 761 00:30:29,690 --> 00:30:28,140 and like all of us here it's it's a 762 00:30:32,149 --> 00:30:29,700 great way to get other 763 00:30:33,590 --> 00:30:32,159 um kind of in the moment perspectives on 764 00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:33,600 Old cases and stuff like that because 765 00:30:39,230 --> 00:30:36,960 old cases really still deserve uh 766 00:30:41,149 --> 00:30:39,240 new eyeballs looking at them at least in 767 00:30:43,310 --> 00:30:41,159 my opinion that's what I've found in my 768 00:30:44,630 --> 00:30:43,320 own kind of search absolutely I totally 769 00:30:46,549 --> 00:30:44,640 agree with you I love looking at some of 770 00:30:47,810 --> 00:30:46,559 these old cases because you do offer a 771 00:30:50,990 --> 00:30:47,820 fresh perspective and you get more 772 00:30:53,330 --> 00:30:51,000 information over the decades and so it's 773 00:30:55,190 --> 00:30:53,340 and you know when you can pull in 774 00:30:57,649 --> 00:30:55,200 correspondence from other researchers 775 00:31:00,110 --> 00:30:57,659 and see the lay of the land and Dynamics 776 00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:00,120 and politics and all of these these 777 00:31:05,810 --> 00:31:03,600 things it really helps to uh maybe put 778 00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:05,820 to bed a lot of things and and raise 779 00:31:11,029 --> 00:31:08,640 some questions on on things but AFU has 780 00:31:12,830 --> 00:31:11,039 done an exceptional job and I they 781 00:31:14,690 --> 00:31:12,840 started back in the 70s 782 00:31:17,510 --> 00:31:14,700 and it's interesting they do get uh 783 00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:17,520 Public Funding along with donations and 784 00:31:23,210 --> 00:31:19,440 things and they've got what seven eight 785 00:31:25,250 --> 00:31:23,220 warehouses full of material which is 786 00:31:28,010 --> 00:31:25,260 just mind-boggling but I would love to 787 00:31:31,070 --> 00:31:28,020 go over there and hang out and meet 788 00:31:34,250 --> 00:31:31,080 everyone and we need to have I believe 789 00:31:37,610 --> 00:31:34,260 you know a few places like that you 790 00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:37,620 mentioned Texas uh and uh you know I 791 00:31:41,870 --> 00:31:39,840 think there there should be different 792 00:31:43,909 --> 00:31:41,880 locations around the country where we 793 00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:43,919 house this material and make it 794 00:31:48,769 --> 00:31:46,080 available and I don't think like I said 795 00:31:52,610 --> 00:31:48,779 putting it into one place is necessarily 796 00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:52,620 the best idea right so and that's that's 797 00:31:55,970 --> 00:31:54,240 kind of a fine line you have to walk in 798 00:31:58,250 --> 00:31:55,980 this field when you're uh doing 799 00:31:59,690 --> 00:31:58,260 something that does cost money like 800 00:32:01,610 --> 00:31:59,700 reaching out for that kind of money 801 00:32:03,950 --> 00:32:01,620 people are very often 802 00:32:06,409 --> 00:32:03,960 um inclined to throw the word grifter 803 00:32:08,510 --> 00:32:06,419 allow around but I think like projects 804 00:32:10,430 --> 00:32:08,520 like yours are are worthwhile cause and 805 00:32:12,529 --> 00:32:10,440 something worth funding because it's you 806 00:32:14,930 --> 00:32:12,539 know an open source archive for all 807 00:32:17,330 --> 00:32:14,940 these researchers and the community I 808 00:32:18,590 --> 00:32:17,340 see people give flat for some of these 809 00:32:20,930 --> 00:32:18,600 conferences that are happening even the 810 00:32:21,950 --> 00:32:20,940 one you attended last weekend Leah but I 811 00:32:23,930 --> 00:32:21,960 think that 812 00:32:26,330 --> 00:32:23,940 you know these things do cost money and 813 00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:26,340 there's overhead like no one's being 814 00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:28,080 fleeced or tricked by these things this 815 00:32:31,610 --> 00:32:30,000 is a this is kind of a service and I 816 00:32:33,289 --> 00:32:31,620 think things like what you're working on 817 00:32:36,289 --> 00:32:33,299 are important and just deserve funding 818 00:32:37,730 --> 00:32:36,299 for people who can uh contribute thank 819 00:32:39,590 --> 00:32:37,740 you and thanks Steve for the nice 820 00:32:40,669 --> 00:32:39,600 comment I appreciate that and all of you 821 00:32:43,730 --> 00:32:40,679 guys in chat 822 00:32:45,830 --> 00:32:43,740 um I you know it it you know this is why 823 00:32:48,110 --> 00:32:45,840 with our new organization we're bringing 824 00:32:50,029 --> 00:32:48,120 in people and interviewing I'm 825 00:32:52,370 --> 00:32:50,039 interviewing people that are in charge 826 00:32:55,310 --> 00:32:52,380 of the the Utah historical preservation 827 00:32:58,250 --> 00:32:55,320 Society people that are in charge of the 828 00:33:00,230 --> 00:32:58,260 Marriott special archives because I want 829 00:33:01,730 --> 00:33:00,240 to bring in people that that do this 830 00:33:04,970 --> 00:33:01,740 that have done this for their entire 831 00:33:07,850 --> 00:33:04,980 careers that have you know I mean that 832 00:33:10,250 --> 00:33:07,860 will show me how to specifically do 833 00:33:12,769 --> 00:33:10,260 things and and work with me and work 834 00:33:15,710 --> 00:33:12,779 with us on the board I think that this 835 00:33:17,149 --> 00:33:15,720 is critical and I'm I'm really excited 836 00:33:19,610 --> 00:33:17,159 about it so 837 00:33:22,130 --> 00:33:19,620 we will see what happens but it's you 838 00:33:23,810 --> 00:33:22,140 know if you think that that is like you 839 00:33:26,450 --> 00:33:23,820 know like you mentioned grifting I mean 840 00:33:27,710 --> 00:33:26,460 I I don't know what to say but if I 841 00:33:29,389 --> 00:33:27,720 wanted to grift I could make up some 842 00:33:31,070 --> 00:33:29,399 good good stories and put out some fake 843 00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:31,080 documents and then just go for it and I 844 00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:33,360 wouldn't have to dedicate like you know 845 00:33:39,289 --> 00:33:35,760 2 000 square feet of my business that I 846 00:33:41,450 --> 00:33:39,299 pay money for towards archives safe and 847 00:33:44,509 --> 00:33:41,460 then spend my time you know behind the 848 00:33:47,029 --> 00:33:44,519 scenes like some of us do to to anal 849 00:33:49,370 --> 00:33:47,039 digitize that information so and then 850 00:33:51,470 --> 00:33:49,380 get the website and then host your show 851 00:33:53,269 --> 00:33:51,480 and things I mean I've I think all of us 852 00:33:55,190 --> 00:33:53,279 you'll I know you guys have done the 853 00:33:58,909 --> 00:33:55,200 same thing but I've spent I can't even 854 00:34:00,830 --> 00:33:58,919 imagine how many tens of thousands maybe 855 00:34:02,149 --> 00:34:00,840 a hundred thousand I mean probably at 856 00:34:04,549 --> 00:34:02,159 the very least 857 00:34:05,750 --> 00:34:04,559 you know the money that I've spent over 858 00:34:08,290 --> 00:34:05,760 the years 859 00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:08,300 interviewing people going to conferences 860 00:34:13,129 --> 00:34:10,560 sweeping up not sweeping up but getting 861 00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:13,139 information like my trip to to 862 00:34:19,310 --> 00:34:15,839 California to pick up the druffle files 863 00:34:21,530 --> 00:34:19,320 I mean that was a pretty penny for a 864 00:34:25,369 --> 00:34:21,540 small business owner during covet right 865 00:34:28,129 --> 00:34:25,379 at the outset of covid and so it's a 866 00:34:30,530 --> 00:34:28,139 labor of love and it deserves to be 867 00:34:33,409 --> 00:34:30,540 preserved and and I think it's the best 868 00:34:35,629 --> 00:34:33,419 to me it's a really an um something that 869 00:34:38,329 --> 00:34:35,639 if you're going to spend money in the 870 00:34:40,730 --> 00:34:38,339 subject it's good to put it towards that 871 00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:40,740 instead of maybe attending well not I 872 00:34:43,490 --> 00:34:41,760 mean Leah because I want to hear about 873 00:34:47,050 --> 00:34:43,500 your conference actually 874 00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:47,060 it's okay you can rag on UFO conferences 875 00:34:51,409 --> 00:34:49,200 what conference did you go to I've just 876 00:34:53,810 --> 00:34:51,419 got to ask you that yeah 877 00:34:55,430 --> 00:34:53,820 um well wait hold on I want it when you 878 00:34:57,650 --> 00:34:55,440 were talking I was thinking so Erica I 879 00:34:59,390 --> 00:34:57,660 mean I'm by profession and education I'm 880 00:35:00,829 --> 00:34:59,400 a rare book in special collections 881 00:35:02,270 --> 00:35:00,839 librarian so if I can ever help you guys 882 00:35:03,290 --> 00:35:02,280 with any of the archival work I'm 883 00:35:05,089 --> 00:35:03,300 already working on some of your 884 00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:05,099 transcription stuff but just from like a 885 00:35:10,490 --> 00:35:07,680 preservation conservation taxonomy 886 00:35:13,010 --> 00:35:10,500 whatever always happy to kind of 887 00:35:15,710 --> 00:35:13,020 um either assist or give guidance 888 00:35:18,829 --> 00:35:15,720 um but yeah the conference so I was at a 889 00:35:20,450 --> 00:35:18,839 conference I was at the second part of I 890 00:35:22,910 --> 00:35:20,460 guess a two-part conference in New York 891 00:35:25,250 --> 00:35:22,920 City the first part was in October 892 00:35:27,589 --> 00:35:25,260 um this last weekend was the second part 893 00:35:30,530 --> 00:35:27,599 um an inquiry into anomalous experiences 894 00:35:32,450 --> 00:35:30,540 and the phenomena and it was kind of a 895 00:35:34,430 --> 00:35:32,460 who's who um I really made the trip to 896 00:35:36,890 --> 00:35:34,440 see Jeffrey [\h__\h] speak 897 00:35:37,970 --> 00:35:36,900 um the dean out of Rice University who's 898 00:35:39,770 --> 00:35:37,980 written a lot on sort of the 899 00:35:41,210 --> 00:35:39,780 intersection between the sacred and the 900 00:35:43,490 --> 00:35:41,220 Paranormal 901 00:35:45,650 --> 00:35:43,500 um but we also had Ralph Blumenthal we 902 00:35:48,829 --> 00:35:45,660 had Liza Kane we had Chris Mellon we had 903 00:35:50,630 --> 00:35:48,839 Whitley strieber 13 year old Leah was 904 00:35:52,370 --> 00:35:50,640 going pretty pretty hardcore over 905 00:35:53,870 --> 00:35:52,380 Whitley strieber because I read you know 906 00:35:55,069 --> 00:35:53,880 communion when I think I was in seventh 907 00:35:57,710 --> 00:35:55,079 grade 908 00:35:59,930 --> 00:35:57,720 um but it was 909 00:36:03,410 --> 00:35:59,940 um in a super small intimate venue I 910 00:36:05,630 --> 00:36:03,420 think about 110 or 115 tickets 911 00:36:07,810 --> 00:36:05,640 um right in the heart of Manhattan and I 912 00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:07,820 mean overall like without conferring 913 00:36:13,490 --> 00:36:10,560 valuation on the contents of what was 914 00:36:15,530 --> 00:36:13,500 presented I will say that I find these 915 00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:15,540 claims of anyone making tons of money on 916 00:36:21,410 --> 00:36:18,480 this event completely bogus like just 917 00:36:22,750 --> 00:36:21,420 from a unit economics perspective like 918 00:36:26,329 --> 00:36:22,760 it 919 00:36:29,510 --> 00:36:26,339 if if they if the organizers cleared 920 00:36:30,290 --> 00:36:29,520 minimum wage for their time invested 921 00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:30,300 um 922 00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:32,400 I would be surprised and I always find 923 00:36:36,530 --> 00:36:34,320 these sort of conversations around money 924 00:36:39,470 --> 00:36:36,540 and labor in this space kind of 925 00:36:41,270 --> 00:36:39,480 perplexing because in no other industry 926 00:36:43,069 --> 00:36:41,280 would I ever expect someone to work for 927 00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:43,079 free and just in a personal disposition 928 00:36:47,930 --> 00:36:45,599 I'm categorically opposed to expecting 929 00:36:50,750 --> 00:36:47,940 Free Labor from anyone 930 00:36:52,370 --> 00:36:50,760 um and it seems very strange to me 931 00:36:54,410 --> 00:36:52,380 um that particularly when it comes to 932 00:36:57,050 --> 00:36:54,420 organizing events of effort or an 933 00:36:58,910 --> 00:36:57,060 archive or something that is sort of 934 00:37:00,710 --> 00:36:58,920 universally beneficial to people 935 00:37:03,410 --> 00:37:00,720 interested in this subject the notion 936 00:37:05,390 --> 00:37:03,420 that you could be grifting it is like 937 00:37:06,710 --> 00:37:05,400 completely ludicrous now that's not this 938 00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:06,720 there's plenty of grift in this 939 00:37:10,130 --> 00:37:08,520 community like let's be real we've all 940 00:37:13,250 --> 00:37:10,140 seen the t-shirts and the stickers and 941 00:37:15,530 --> 00:37:13,260 everything else but uh the Griff doesn't 942 00:37:18,230 --> 00:37:15,540 show up in archives like what you're 943 00:37:20,630 --> 00:37:18,240 building Erica or um an independent 944 00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:20,640 research well it tries to show up but it 945 00:37:26,690 --> 00:37:24,000 tries to yeah but it um 946 00:37:28,490 --> 00:37:26,700 I I just feel like those accusations are 947 00:37:31,069 --> 00:37:28,500 frequently just leveraged because people 948 00:37:32,810 --> 00:37:31,079 feel like it's like some point of 949 00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:32,820 character assassination and it's not 950 00:37:37,069 --> 00:37:35,520 like it's these things cost money that's 951 00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:37,079 just unfortunately the universe we live 952 00:37:39,410 --> 00:37:38,640 in I wish all of this were free but it's 953 00:37:42,050 --> 00:37:39,420 not 954 00:37:43,250 --> 00:37:42,060 well you know I mean and I I totally 955 00:37:45,770 --> 00:37:43,260 hear you on that I know that there are 956 00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:45,780 people that do this and and put up their 957 00:37:50,329 --> 00:37:48,240 own money for conferences and I also 958 00:37:53,510 --> 00:37:50,339 know that there are people like the 959 00:37:56,089 --> 00:37:53,520 people people in in uh at a certain 960 00:37:59,270 --> 00:37:56,099 Ranch who are making quite a bit of 961 00:38:01,569 --> 00:37:59,280 money in for for conferences taxpayer 962 00:38:03,970 --> 00:38:01,579 money that is going to pay people 963 00:38:07,310 --> 00:38:03,980 Grand foreign 964 00:38:10,430 --> 00:38:07,320 and then also where they're you know 965 00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:10,440 employing uh or hiring family members 966 00:38:14,030 --> 00:38:11,760 which I mean is great you know whatever 967 00:38:14,930 --> 00:38:14,040 we're doing but uh Jack Brewer did a 968 00:38:17,569 --> 00:38:14,940 great 969 00:38:19,490 --> 00:38:17,579 um series an article that everybody 970 00:38:23,569 --> 00:38:19,500 should read Skinwalker cast members 971 00:38:24,829 --> 00:38:23,579 received 175 K in County Economic 972 00:38:27,470 --> 00:38:24,839 Development 973 00:38:29,210 --> 00:38:27,480 um interviewed Tom Winterton which was 974 00:38:31,490 --> 00:38:29,220 very telling we've done a lot of work 975 00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:31,500 behind the scenes with regard to this 976 00:38:36,589 --> 00:38:34,320 and and so there are some some 977 00:38:39,230 --> 00:38:36,599 um some things that should be looked at 978 00:38:42,290 --> 00:38:39,240 and when you've got a specific group of 979 00:38:43,870 --> 00:38:42,300 people that are doing things and they're 980 00:38:46,550 --> 00:38:43,880 promoting crypto 981 00:38:47,930 --> 00:38:46,560 and promoting I mean this is my favorite 982 00:38:50,470 --> 00:38:47,940 thing when I was at the conference up 983 00:38:52,609 --> 00:38:50,480 near Skinwalker Ranch I was just 984 00:38:54,589 --> 00:38:52,619 dumbfounded to see 985 00:38:57,170 --> 00:38:54,599 speakers like half the time talking 986 00:38:58,490 --> 00:38:57,180 about their father who was an important 987 00:39:01,430 --> 00:38:58,500 figure in the subject and then half the 988 00:39:04,010 --> 00:39:01,440 time promoting crypto yes Schillinger 989 00:39:06,109 --> 00:39:04,020 Bitcoin yeah I mean and it's like in you 990 00:39:08,690 --> 00:39:06,119 know Avi Loeb I mean some this is where 991 00:39:10,310 --> 00:39:08,700 that's going and it's like what so I 992 00:39:13,010 --> 00:39:10,320 mean there are money schemes going on 993 00:39:15,170 --> 00:39:13,020 right in front of our faces and I'm not 994 00:39:16,670 --> 00:39:15,180 sure what that has to do with ufology 995 00:39:18,829 --> 00:39:16,680 but there there are definitely some 996 00:39:20,690 --> 00:39:18,839 questionable things going on in my 997 00:39:23,210 --> 00:39:20,700 opinion uh 998 00:39:24,890 --> 00:39:23,220 I am I did want to ask a question on 999 00:39:26,630 --> 00:39:24,900 behalf of Steve long here where can we 1000 00:39:28,370 --> 00:39:26,640 go to contribute donations towards the 1001 00:39:30,290 --> 00:39:28,380 maintenance and digitization of Erica's 1002 00:39:32,650 --> 00:39:30,300 archives how can we support you thank 1003 00:39:34,790 --> 00:39:32,660 you thank you it's for standing 1004 00:39:37,430 --> 00:39:34,800 frontiersresearch.org is our that's our 1005 00:39:39,650 --> 00:39:37,440 website and you can donate there and I I 1006 00:39:41,630 --> 00:39:39,660 we appreciate that greatly we're very 1007 00:39:45,170 --> 00:39:41,640 excited so 1008 00:39:47,450 --> 00:39:45,180 we've got we've got plans you guys 1009 00:39:49,010 --> 00:39:47,460 that's good not only for archiving but 1010 00:39:51,230 --> 00:39:49,020 for you know like with the foyer 1011 00:39:52,310 --> 00:39:51,240 requests and some of the other the other 1012 00:39:54,470 --> 00:39:52,320 things that we're going to do it's going 1013 00:39:57,050 --> 00:39:54,480 to be really cool so well and Erica 1014 00:40:00,530 --> 00:39:57,060 we've been talking about how you've done 1015 00:40:02,990 --> 00:40:00,540 so much archiving and reviewing cases 1016 00:40:05,589 --> 00:40:03,000 and doing a lot of good work on the 1017 00:40:08,390 --> 00:40:05,599 information that exists and 1018 00:40:11,089 --> 00:40:08,400 your show actually played a not 1019 00:40:13,430 --> 00:40:11,099 insignificant role in my introduction to 1020 00:40:16,849 --> 00:40:13,440 this subject uh I'm pretty new to the 1021 00:40:19,550 --> 00:40:16,859 subject I came in from a atheist skeptic 1022 00:40:21,290 --> 00:40:19,560 materialist uh pure uh you know physics 1023 00:40:23,150 --> 00:40:21,300 background I mean my background is in 1024 00:40:25,910 --> 00:40:23,160 philosophy but my world view is a 1025 00:40:27,290 --> 00:40:25,920 physicalist uh materialist background 1026 00:40:29,510 --> 00:40:27,300 I recognize something strange is 1027 00:40:30,829 --> 00:40:29,520 happening in this subject in May 2021 1028 00:40:32,569 --> 00:40:30,839 when I started getting involved I was 1029 00:40:35,990 --> 00:40:32,579 asking people online about this subject 1030 00:40:38,750 --> 00:40:36,000 uh the founder of our Reddit subreddit 1031 00:40:42,410 --> 00:40:38,760 r-u-a-p sent me your show with Dr 1032 00:40:43,849 --> 00:40:42,420 teodorani from 2020 and uh sent me that 1033 00:40:46,250 --> 00:40:43,859 way saying if you want to actually look 1034 00:40:48,349 --> 00:40:46,260 at some real data from people going out 1035 00:40:50,630 --> 00:40:48,359 into the field take a look at this and 1036 00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:50,640 so your show was the introduction in 1037 00:40:54,710 --> 00:40:53,160 some ways for me to follow the path I'm 1038 00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:54,720 on now which is to observe the 1039 00:41:00,170 --> 00:40:57,359 peer-reviewed published physics data uh 1040 00:41:03,710 --> 00:41:00,180 on the subject rather than looking at 1041 00:41:05,930 --> 00:41:03,720 the history of the cases and I'm curious 1042 00:41:09,050 --> 00:41:05,940 how did you become familiar with Dr 1043 00:41:12,050 --> 00:41:09,060 theodorani's work and what led you down 1044 00:41:15,290 --> 00:41:12,060 that path of looking at the physical 1045 00:41:17,510 --> 00:41:15,300 data as it came in instead of purely the 1046 00:41:20,750 --> 00:41:17,520 case histories you know what I when I 1047 00:41:23,390 --> 00:41:20,760 was with mufon I I was really fascinated 1048 00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:23,400 by the the anomalous light phenomena by 1049 00:41:28,670 --> 00:41:25,680 the you know the glowing Amber orbs and 1050 00:41:30,410 --> 00:41:28,680 having had a sighting that at the time I 1051 00:41:32,930 --> 00:41:30,420 thought was was something anomalous I 1052 00:41:35,450 --> 00:41:32,940 mean this was this is where I wanted to 1053 00:41:37,910 --> 00:41:35,460 go and I I was trying to I did a lot of 1054 00:41:40,490 --> 00:41:37,920 research to find people that were 1055 00:41:44,750 --> 00:41:40,500 researching the subject and I came 1056 00:41:47,210 --> 00:41:44,760 across erling strand I also met Ted Rowe 1057 00:41:49,910 --> 00:41:47,220 at that time from narcap 1058 00:41:52,310 --> 00:41:49,920 and then uh Dr Taylor Rani because Dr 1059 00:41:55,310 --> 00:41:52,320 Taylor durani was involved with the 1060 00:41:58,370 --> 00:41:55,320 hashtalin and the the on the first 1061 00:42:02,630 --> 00:41:58,380 research and so I became I reached out 1062 00:42:05,450 --> 00:42:02,640 to all of them and then got to know them 1063 00:42:09,109 --> 00:42:05,460 um Airline was very graceful uh gracious 1064 00:42:12,050 --> 00:42:09,119 to to have me I came over to Norway and 1065 00:42:14,450 --> 00:42:12,060 I got to hang around uh and watch some 1066 00:42:17,630 --> 00:42:14,460 of the the best scientists in in Europe 1067 00:42:19,970 --> 00:42:17,640 kind of converge on this little sleepy 1068 00:42:22,609 --> 00:42:19,980 Valley and set up their instrumentation 1069 00:42:23,930 --> 00:42:22,619 and you know I had Taylor Rani on the 1070 00:42:27,050 --> 00:42:23,940 show I've had Ted row on the show 1071 00:42:29,390 --> 00:42:27,060 talking about narcap and things and so 1072 00:42:31,430 --> 00:42:29,400 that was it was me like digging into 1073 00:42:33,410 --> 00:42:31,440 this and saying this is what I want to 1074 00:42:35,329 --> 00:42:33,420 study and there is some science here 1075 00:42:38,810 --> 00:42:35,339 there are some people that are pushing 1076 00:42:40,490 --> 00:42:38,820 the boundaries and so I reached out and 1077 00:42:42,710 --> 00:42:40,500 and I've been very grateful that I have 1078 00:42:45,890 --> 00:42:42,720 because I really think the world of of 1079 00:42:51,050 --> 00:42:47,329 excellent 1080 00:42:53,990 --> 00:42:51,060 and um what what do you think of this 1081 00:42:56,750 --> 00:42:54,000 whole side of it uh just because there 1082 00:42:59,329 --> 00:42:56,760 there is this whole view that the 1083 00:43:02,990 --> 00:42:59,339 science data once it becomes strong 1084 00:43:05,630 --> 00:43:03,000 enough stops being about UFOs and my 1085 00:43:08,030 --> 00:43:05,640 view on that got shifted when I 1086 00:43:10,030 --> 00:43:08,040 discovered that in 2014 physical review 1087 00:43:13,069 --> 00:43:10,040 letters published a peer-reviewed paper 1088 00:43:16,910 --> 00:43:13,079 definitively verifying that balls of 1089 00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:16,920 light up to over a meter wide and up to 1090 00:43:23,390 --> 00:43:20,880 a 16 foot plus luminous recorded glow do 1091 00:43:26,329 --> 00:43:23,400 occur in Earth's atmosphere and that 1092 00:43:28,730 --> 00:43:26,339 made me think the world is fundamentally 1093 00:43:30,589 --> 00:43:28,740 different between a world where things 1094 00:43:33,890 --> 00:43:30,599 like that are verified and things like 1095 00:43:35,809 --> 00:43:33,900 that do not exist and my perspective on 1096 00:43:38,089 --> 00:43:35,819 this subject is influenced very heavily 1097 00:43:39,890 --> 00:43:38,099 by that kind of phenomenon having been 1098 00:43:40,970 --> 00:43:39,900 verified at this point in the scientific 1099 00:43:44,450 --> 00:43:40,980 record 1100 00:43:47,390 --> 00:43:44,460 to what extent do you think that once 1101 00:43:50,150 --> 00:43:47,400 the information becomes strong enough it 1102 00:43:52,430 --> 00:43:50,160 moves into science versus staying in 1103 00:43:54,770 --> 00:43:52,440 ufology and do you think there's any 1104 00:43:55,790 --> 00:43:54,780 chance that maybe people are looking at 1105 00:43:57,829 --> 00:43:55,800 the same thing from different 1106 00:43:59,690 --> 00:43:57,839 perspectives kind of like the Blind Men 1107 00:44:01,069 --> 00:43:59,700 and the Elephant type of thing 1108 00:44:05,030 --> 00:44:01,079 you know I think there's a lot of that 1109 00:44:07,550 --> 00:44:05,040 and I think you know it is it's 1110 00:44:10,550 --> 00:44:07,560 it I have to just commend again airling 1111 00:44:14,089 --> 00:44:10,560 Strand and everyone over in in hashtalin 1112 00:44:17,030 --> 00:44:14,099 because for 35 40 years they have done 1113 00:44:19,069 --> 00:44:17,040 so much to document things 1114 00:44:21,770 --> 00:44:19,079 um unfortunately the the project has 1115 00:44:24,349 --> 00:44:21,780 been kind of uh not shut down but it's 1116 00:44:26,210 --> 00:44:24,359 been turned over to a couple over there 1117 00:44:28,670 --> 00:44:26,220 who I met that I just think the world of 1118 00:44:32,089 --> 00:44:28,680 in there so it's not being funded by the 1119 00:44:33,650 --> 00:44:32,099 university anymore the college and and I 1120 00:44:35,809 --> 00:44:33,660 just have to say that they've I mean 1121 00:44:37,130 --> 00:44:35,819 that was just it was so incredible to 1122 00:44:39,290 --> 00:44:37,140 meet these people and didn't understand 1123 00:44:41,210 --> 00:44:39,300 that they're using science they were 1124 00:44:43,430 --> 00:44:41,220 using science they were incorporating 1125 00:44:45,530 --> 00:44:43,440 the the students you know from the 1126 00:44:47,630 --> 00:44:45,540 College of Engineering and teaching them 1127 00:44:49,550 --> 00:44:47,640 how to use science and to collect 1128 00:44:51,829 --> 00:44:49,560 information it was like it was one of 1129 00:44:55,730 --> 00:44:51,839 the most profound two weeks of my entire 1130 00:44:59,390 --> 00:44:55,740 life and so I just you know I think that 1131 00:45:01,550 --> 00:44:59,400 if we can continue down that path and we 1132 00:45:03,410 --> 00:45:01,560 can have people like that that are 1133 00:45:06,650 --> 00:45:03,420 separating 1134 00:45:08,390 --> 00:45:06,660 stories and emotion which I will be the 1135 00:45:10,970 --> 00:45:08,400 first person to say that you know this 1136 00:45:14,089 --> 00:45:10,980 has been a journey for me to do that but 1137 00:45:16,790 --> 00:45:14,099 to to kind of push away the the UFO 1138 00:45:19,069 --> 00:45:16,800 circus and then do that I think that 1139 00:45:21,710 --> 00:45:19,079 there can be a big movement but when you 1140 00:45:24,589 --> 00:45:21,720 unfortunately see 1141 00:45:27,589 --> 00:45:24,599 people you know we've seen this new push 1142 00:45:30,050 --> 00:45:27,599 in the public eye to allegedly promote 1143 00:45:31,490 --> 00:45:30,060 UFO research and 1144 00:45:34,010 --> 00:45:31,500 the end of the day they're promoting 1145 00:45:36,170 --> 00:45:34,020 crypto and things like that I mean that 1146 00:45:38,089 --> 00:45:36,180 just you know that that diminishes the 1147 00:45:40,730 --> 00:45:38,099 effect that people like erling Strand 1148 00:45:44,569 --> 00:45:40,740 and others Dr Taylor Rani can can have 1149 00:45:48,109 --> 00:45:44,579 and so maybe it's our job to clean up 1150 00:45:50,450 --> 00:45:48,119 the subject and to to create you know 1151 00:45:52,730 --> 00:45:50,460 some ethical guidelines and some 1152 00:45:55,130 --> 00:45:52,740 boundaries and to expose people that are 1153 00:45:58,309 --> 00:45:55,140 not necessarily on the up and up and and 1154 00:46:00,829 --> 00:45:58,319 do our job in the public sense to help 1155 00:46:02,690 --> 00:46:00,839 people like erling Strand and the 1156 00:46:05,750 --> 00:46:02,700 scientists that are trying to to move 1157 00:46:09,829 --> 00:46:05,760 things forward we can help them you know 1158 00:46:11,329 --> 00:46:09,839 move it forward in with Integrity so 1159 00:46:12,349 --> 00:46:11,339 did that answer your question because 1160 00:46:15,410 --> 00:46:12,359 that just seemed like a really 1161 00:46:18,109 --> 00:46:15,420 long-winded thing right there no no well 1162 00:46:20,329 --> 00:46:18,119 that's uh we're talking about UFOs so it 1163 00:46:22,069 --> 00:46:20,339 would be uh inconsistent with the 1164 00:46:24,050 --> 00:46:22,079 subject if you gave a short concise 1165 00:46:24,609 --> 00:46:24,060 answer 1166 00:46:27,470 --> 00:46:24,619 um 1167 00:46:29,930 --> 00:46:27,480 uh just a brief follow-up on that and 1168 00:46:33,589 --> 00:46:29,940 maybe we it's a effective Pivot Point 1169 00:46:36,050 --> 00:46:33,599 towards Skinwalker Ranch because they 1170 00:46:38,990 --> 00:46:36,060 allege to do so much of science they 1171 00:46:41,329 --> 00:46:39,000 claim and they don't publish anything Dr 1172 00:46:44,630 --> 00:46:41,339 teodorani has published in peer-reviewed 1173 00:46:47,270 --> 00:46:44,640 not earth Sciences or at least science 1174 00:46:50,809 --> 00:46:47,280 journals on this subject so there's you 1175 00:46:53,950 --> 00:46:50,819 know one up on that now we Skinwalker 1176 00:46:57,410 --> 00:46:53,960 Ranch is uh in in Utah is that correct 1177 00:46:59,690 --> 00:46:57,420 yes and uh I there are a number of 1178 00:47:03,230 --> 00:46:59,700 prominent figures I've noticed in 1179 00:47:06,589 --> 00:47:03,240 ufology who come from a Mormon uh 1180 00:47:09,230 --> 00:47:06,599 background and based on my knowledge of 1181 00:47:12,530 --> 00:47:09,240 that uh the religion that cosmology 1182 00:47:14,930 --> 00:47:12,540 includes the possibility of other worlds 1183 00:47:18,349 --> 00:47:14,940 and other planets and it's made me 1184 00:47:21,230 --> 00:47:18,359 wonder to what extent the pre-existing 1185 00:47:23,930 --> 00:47:21,240 world view a person has shapes their 1186 00:47:26,569 --> 00:47:23,940 experience when they've had a anomalous 1187 00:47:29,210 --> 00:47:26,579 experience and like how they process 1188 00:47:31,250 --> 00:47:29,220 that in relation to their their world 1189 00:47:32,750 --> 00:47:31,260 view and I'm curious if you have any 1190 00:47:34,809 --> 00:47:32,760 insight you could share about whether 1191 00:47:38,510 --> 00:47:34,819 you feel that your background 1192 00:47:42,230 --> 00:47:38,520 in that culture shaped your experience 1193 00:47:45,290 --> 00:47:42,240 with this subject at all no and what I 1194 00:47:46,809 --> 00:47:45,300 was really there's a short and concise 1195 00:47:50,030 --> 00:47:46,819 answer 1196 00:47:54,109 --> 00:47:50,040 and I I feel like you know the Mormon 1197 00:47:56,809 --> 00:47:54,119 the LDS component is being used as some 1198 00:48:00,170 --> 00:47:56,819 sort of mystical thing I mean I grew up 1199 00:48:03,349 --> 00:48:00,180 in the church I'm I'm still LDS 1200 00:48:06,890 --> 00:48:03,359 um believe it or not and you know I have 1201 00:48:09,530 --> 00:48:06,900 very a lot of good friends that are you 1202 00:48:12,290 --> 00:48:09,540 know LDS this this doesn't come up this 1203 00:48:14,510 --> 00:48:12,300 is no I mean sorry the way that they 1204 00:48:17,690 --> 00:48:14,520 have portrayed 1205 00:48:19,010 --> 00:48:17,700 that is I mean great there's a you know 1206 00:48:20,510 --> 00:48:19,020 there's specific 1207 00:48:23,510 --> 00:48:20,520 things that could be thrown out there 1208 00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:23,520 like there are in every religion but to 1209 00:48:29,030 --> 00:48:26,160 kind of mystify 1210 00:48:31,309 --> 00:48:29,040 the LDS religion and and 1211 00:48:33,050 --> 00:48:31,319 um promote things and you know I've 1212 00:48:34,250 --> 00:48:33,060 watched this with skin walker Ranch it's 1213 00:48:35,750 --> 00:48:34,260 been really interesting it's like well 1214 00:48:37,010 --> 00:48:35,760 you know what are they doing what does 1215 00:48:38,750 --> 00:48:37,020 the Mormon church have to do with this 1216 00:48:41,089 --> 00:48:38,760 what is you know there's some secret 1217 00:48:42,589 --> 00:48:41,099 ritual and they've got some sort of you 1218 00:48:44,630 --> 00:48:42,599 know I mean blah blah blah well I will I 1219 00:48:46,970 --> 00:48:44,640 will tell you that I 1220 00:48:49,609 --> 00:48:46,980 well I'm not going to tell you 1221 00:48:53,510 --> 00:48:49,619 I think that this has been used kind of 1222 00:48:55,730 --> 00:48:53,520 like unfortunately Nazis and the Occult 1223 00:48:58,250 --> 00:48:55,740 and these things have been glamorized 1224 00:49:00,170 --> 00:48:58,260 and used and I think that's what is 1225 00:49:02,750 --> 00:49:00,180 happening with the LDS religion because 1226 00:49:04,790 --> 00:49:02,760 if you were to walk in and talk to to my 1227 00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:04,800 Bishop it would be like 1228 00:49:09,530 --> 00:49:06,000 what 1229 00:49:12,050 --> 00:49:09,540 it's just not even in the game plan 1230 00:49:14,630 --> 00:49:12,060 super Bishop isn't a UFO guy I don't 1231 00:49:16,790 --> 00:49:14,640 think so but I will tell you one thing 1232 00:49:19,910 --> 00:49:16,800 this is really interesting my former 1233 00:49:21,829 --> 00:49:19,920 Bishop he's passed away was the owner of 1234 00:49:23,450 --> 00:49:21,839 of Skinwalker Ranch before Bigelow 1235 00:49:26,809 --> 00:49:23,460 bought it 1236 00:49:28,490 --> 00:49:26,819 hmm cool yes he's the one that they've 1237 00:49:31,849 --> 00:49:28,500 gone to Great Lengths to try to 1238 00:49:34,609 --> 00:49:31,859 discredit uh a man who was a pillar of a 1239 00:49:36,829 --> 00:49:34,619 community and who passed away who did 1240 00:49:40,250 --> 00:49:36,839 not believe uh he knew that there was 1241 00:49:42,710 --> 00:49:40,260 nothing paranormal going on at the ranch 1242 00:49:45,650 --> 00:49:42,720 well I generally genuinely appreciate 1243 00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:45,660 your uh response and I take it at face 1244 00:49:48,890 --> 00:49:47,760 value I was sincerely curious and it's 1245 00:49:50,809 --> 00:49:48,900 something I've been wondering about and 1246 00:49:52,309 --> 00:49:50,819 yeah no thank you and I didn't I don't 1247 00:49:54,730 --> 00:49:52,319 don't I'm sorry if I did I didn't mean 1248 00:50:01,990 --> 00:49:54,740 to come across you know like 1249 00:50:06,190 --> 00:50:04,250 and I just wanted to say that I agree 1250 00:50:09,050 --> 00:50:06,200 with a comment that I saw Here by fij 1251 00:50:10,690 --> 00:50:09,060 7716 they say Campbell dot argument 1252 00:50:13,670 --> 00:50:10,700 applies to everybody including yourself 1253 00:50:16,670 --> 00:50:13,680 I agree entirely my world view being 1254 00:50:20,270 --> 00:50:16,680 based in an atheist a physical science 1255 00:50:21,890 --> 00:50:20,280 background 100 that by default shapes my 1256 00:50:25,010 --> 00:50:21,900 world view and that's how I process 1257 00:50:26,690 --> 00:50:25,020 things and then I apply uh consideration 1258 00:50:29,150 --> 00:50:26,700 to it and see if it's accurate but I 1259 00:50:31,550 --> 00:50:29,160 agree entirely it is always good to like 1260 00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:31,560 get the perspectives of people who have 1261 00:50:34,370 --> 00:50:32,880 um different backgrounds and different 1262 00:50:37,010 --> 00:50:34,380 upbringings and things like that because 1263 00:50:38,809 --> 00:50:37,020 it like you said it does kind of 1264 00:50:41,569 --> 00:50:38,819 change your perspective on those things 1265 00:50:44,450 --> 00:50:41,579 and it's it's good to hear you know all 1266 00:50:46,190 --> 00:50:44,460 kind of uh facets of this thing it's 1267 00:50:47,990 --> 00:50:46,200 really interesting I've got a Greek 1268 00:50:50,569 --> 00:50:48,000 Orthodox friend that I talk a lot about 1269 00:50:52,849 --> 00:50:50,579 UFOs yeah he watches the show quite a 1270 00:50:54,770 --> 00:50:52,859 bit here's a good story about UFOs too 1271 00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:54,780 doesn't it yeah he does well it's it's 1272 00:50:59,150 --> 00:50:57,359 the story of um yeah one of one of the 1273 00:51:00,589 --> 00:50:59,160 preset is church I believe really 1274 00:51:03,049 --> 00:51:00,599 fascinating 1275 00:51:04,490 --> 00:51:03,059 you know uh in the Greek Orthodox faith 1276 00:51:07,130 --> 00:51:04,500 and stuff like that he's just out back 1277 00:51:09,710 --> 00:51:07,140 and never or how backpacking never a UFO 1278 00:51:11,630 --> 00:51:09,720 guy and has this experience and doesn't 1279 00:51:13,250 --> 00:51:11,640 feel that it conflicts uh with his 1280 00:51:15,530 --> 00:51:13,260 spiritual or religious beliefs it all 1281 00:51:16,970 --> 00:51:15,540 just kind of it's all just part of it 1282 00:51:18,230 --> 00:51:16,980 and I like hearing that from the 1283 00:51:20,089 --> 00:51:18,240 different perspectives so that's really 1284 00:51:21,710 --> 00:51:20,099 interesting well it you know and it is 1285 00:51:23,450 --> 00:51:21,720 fascinating and I do I mean absolutely 1286 00:51:26,390 --> 00:51:23,460 are what what we're grown what we're 1287 00:51:29,690 --> 00:51:26,400 brought up with shapes are our belief 1288 00:51:33,290 --> 00:51:29,700 systems and in things and I I will very 1289 00:51:35,990 --> 00:51:33,300 honestly say that that is so just so 1290 00:51:38,089 --> 00:51:36,000 down low down on the totem pole in what 1291 00:51:41,150 --> 00:51:38,099 is talked about in the LDS religion it's 1292 00:51:43,250 --> 00:51:41,160 not even funny I mean they've again you 1293 00:51:45,470 --> 00:51:43,260 know picked this up and kind of run with 1294 00:51:47,150 --> 00:51:45,480 this kind of oh oh my gosh you know 1295 00:51:48,589 --> 00:51:47,160 they're doing these these things on 1296 00:51:50,870 --> 00:51:48,599 behalf of the Mormon church and it's 1297 00:51:53,690 --> 00:51:50,880 just not or there's this some sort of 1298 00:51:55,730 --> 00:51:53,700 Mormon mysticism it's just it's really 1299 00:51:59,930 --> 00:51:55,740 fascinating to me and I think the same 1300 00:52:02,630 --> 00:51:59,940 could be said for the skin walker uh uh 1301 00:52:04,849 --> 00:52:02,640 thing I was I was fortunate enough to 1302 00:52:07,730 --> 00:52:04,859 know one of the world's foremost Native 1303 00:52:09,049 --> 00:52:07,740 American historians who was a professor 1304 00:52:11,270 --> 00:52:09,059 at the University of Utah and went 1305 00:52:15,109 --> 00:52:11,280 around all the different tribes and 1306 00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:15,119 collected their uh oral history and I 1307 00:52:20,630 --> 00:52:17,520 spent many you know I mean I spent a lot 1308 00:52:22,430 --> 00:52:20,640 of time speaking with him and you know I 1309 00:52:24,170 --> 00:52:22,440 said can you please provide me 1310 00:52:25,970 --> 00:52:24,180 information about 1311 00:52:28,970 --> 00:52:25,980 skinwalkers and he looked at me like 1312 00:52:30,829 --> 00:52:28,980 what are you talking about and he went 1313 00:52:33,290 --> 00:52:30,839 through his I mean one of the largest 1314 00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:33,300 collections of of books and he found 1315 00:52:38,030 --> 00:52:36,240 maybe two books that referenced had two 1316 00:52:40,010 --> 00:52:38,040 lines about that 1317 00:52:42,290 --> 00:52:40,020 so here you've got 1318 00:52:43,970 --> 00:52:42,300 a bunch of white guys you know George 1319 00:52:46,970 --> 00:52:43,980 now I was gonna say that white people 1320 00:52:49,130 --> 00:52:46,980 love this [\h__\h] right it's like haunted 1321 00:52:51,290 --> 00:52:49,140 Indian burial ground stuff like I mean 1322 00:52:53,270 --> 00:52:51,300 it's like okay first of all if there's a 1323 00:52:55,609 --> 00:52:53,280 burial ground there prove it and if 1324 00:52:59,270 --> 00:52:55,619 there is shame on you for exploiting it 1325 00:53:00,710 --> 00:52:59,280 right not telling the right people and 1326 00:53:03,290 --> 00:53:00,720 making sure that that's preserved but 1327 00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:03,300 you're trapping all over it and making a 1328 00:53:07,730 --> 00:53:05,760 mockery of it and and you know I mean 1329 00:53:10,069 --> 00:53:07,740 it's just like it's 1330 00:53:12,170 --> 00:53:10,079 I mean first of all it's it's you not 1331 00:53:16,309 --> 00:53:12,180 Navajo I mean there's so many problems 1332 00:53:18,170 --> 00:53:16,319 with this story and so I think that um 1333 00:53:19,930 --> 00:53:18,180 you know again it's like somebody taking 1334 00:53:22,130 --> 00:53:19,940 this 1335 00:53:26,630 --> 00:53:22,140 and creating a narrative that's 1336 00:53:29,030 --> 00:53:26,640 completely nonsense you know and so I 1337 00:53:31,490 --> 00:53:29,040 have to say just do your own research 1338 00:53:32,450 --> 00:53:31,500 again like I said not in the lens of a 1339 00:53:34,970 --> 00:53:32,460 UFO 1340 00:53:37,549 --> 00:53:34,980 fanatic or research or look at the 1341 00:53:39,049 --> 00:53:37,559 broader perspective and do uh you know 1342 00:53:40,910 --> 00:53:39,059 go to the University of Utah archives 1343 00:53:43,849 --> 00:53:40,920 and go through some of the things the 1344 00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:43,859 Holdings that they have about uh Native 1345 00:53:49,609 --> 00:53:47,520 American oral traditions and and Customs 1346 00:53:53,510 --> 00:53:49,619 practices and things I think that's very 1347 00:53:55,910 --> 00:53:53,520 telling and can sort out some uh stinky 1348 00:53:58,250 --> 00:53:55,920 stories at the end of the day 1349 00:54:00,410 --> 00:53:58,260 that was something I was curious about 1350 00:54:02,510 --> 00:54:00,420 um knowing that skinwalkers do come from 1351 00:54:04,309 --> 00:54:02,520 Navajo culture I was wondering if they 1352 00:54:07,970 --> 00:54:04,319 were also Incorporated in that local 1353 00:54:10,309 --> 00:54:07,980 culture out uh in that region of Utah 1354 00:54:11,870 --> 00:54:10,319 and I had my suspicions but it's it's 1355 00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:11,880 good to hear that coming from you too 1356 00:54:16,549 --> 00:54:13,920 right you know and I think when you look 1357 00:54:19,010 --> 00:54:16,559 at you know you people are there's a 1358 00:54:20,750 --> 00:54:19,020 group of people who are making money and 1359 00:54:22,970 --> 00:54:20,760 promoting a specific narrative and so 1360 00:54:25,910 --> 00:54:22,980 they have obviously a vested interest to 1361 00:54:28,190 --> 00:54:25,920 say oh wait back in 1800 this guy said 1362 00:54:31,130 --> 00:54:28,200 this and you know a b c and d and it's 1363 00:54:34,430 --> 00:54:31,140 like really and who's giving that 1364 00:54:37,609 --> 00:54:34,440 information out right oh gotcha okay 1365 00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:37,619 again it can't be proved and and I think 1366 00:54:43,730 --> 00:54:39,599 that you know when you're making claims 1367 00:54:44,690 --> 00:54:43,740 such extraordinary claims and like I 1368 00:54:46,309 --> 00:54:44,700 mentioned at the beginning of the show 1369 00:54:47,990 --> 00:54:46,319 when you're saying that people are dying 1370 00:54:51,049 --> 00:54:48,000 because they're stepping foot on your 1371 00:54:52,670 --> 00:54:51,059 property then you better back it up and 1372 00:54:54,650 --> 00:54:52,680 you better provide stuff because there 1373 00:54:55,849 --> 00:54:54,660 there comes a point where this could 1374 00:54:59,210 --> 00:54:55,859 potentially 1375 00:55:01,069 --> 00:54:59,220 it you know I mean you could be 1376 00:55:03,890 --> 00:55:01,079 bordering on breaking 1377 00:55:06,950 --> 00:55:03,900 at the very least you're not doing your 1378 00:55:10,430 --> 00:55:06,960 due diligence ethically so it's a pretty 1379 00:55:12,770 --> 00:55:10,440 talk line and a serious one we have some 1380 00:55:14,870 --> 00:55:12,780 late breaking addition I have Lewis here 1381 00:55:16,250 --> 00:55:14,880 who just showed up so I'm gonna get him 1382 00:55:18,530 --> 00:55:16,260 added to the stream I guess I don't have 1383 00:55:20,809 --> 00:55:18,540 to I don't have to ask his uh his 1384 00:55:23,690 --> 00:55:20,819 questions on his behalf anymore hey 1385 00:55:27,470 --> 00:55:23,700 Lewis great to see you dude hey hi Erica 1386 00:55:30,589 --> 00:55:27,480 hello I'm glad you made time for us yeah 1387 00:55:31,730 --> 00:55:30,599 you to show up uh 55 minutes late how 1388 00:55:34,730 --> 00:55:31,740 are things 1389 00:55:38,630 --> 00:55:34,740 all right I was just talking to Jeff of 1390 00:55:39,650 --> 00:55:38,640 um strange Recon strange Recon nice I 1391 00:55:40,790 --> 00:55:39,660 thought he only did the show in the 1392 00:55:44,089 --> 00:55:40,800 morning 1393 00:55:47,089 --> 00:55:44,099 -ish I think is what he calls it a very 1394 00:55:50,349 --> 00:55:47,099 big ish here but yeah he's taking a turn 1395 00:55:52,609 --> 00:55:50,359 towards the Twitter spaces uh strategy 1396 00:55:54,349 --> 00:55:52,619 broadcasting constantly and hoping 1397 00:55:56,450 --> 00:55:54,359 people tune in 1398 00:55:59,089 --> 00:55:56,460 um so Luis I asked your question about 1399 00:56:01,910 --> 00:55:59,099 the corruption of ufology but I did not 1400 00:56:03,890 --> 00:56:01,920 ask a question about the persistently 1401 00:56:06,230 --> 00:56:03,900 perplexing cases 1402 00:56:07,490 --> 00:56:06,240 yeah a computer on your behalf though if 1403 00:56:09,349 --> 00:56:07,500 you don't remember it 1404 00:56:11,930 --> 00:56:09,359 oh yeah I was going to ask you Erica if 1405 00:56:13,730 --> 00:56:11,940 you think there are any perplexing cases 1406 00:56:15,349 --> 00:56:13,740 which make you 1407 00:56:16,790 --> 00:56:15,359 give you pause to think that there is 1408 00:56:19,270 --> 00:56:16,800 something Beyond current human 1409 00:56:21,589 --> 00:56:19,280 understanding 1410 00:56:23,390 --> 00:56:21,599 oh Lord 1411 00:56:25,730 --> 00:56:23,400 um that's the real hard question it's 1412 00:56:30,349 --> 00:56:25,740 not the Mormonism question I know it's 1413 00:56:34,609 --> 00:56:32,569 like I said I I've had experiences that 1414 00:56:36,109 --> 00:56:34,619 I can't explain that's why I'm still 1415 00:56:38,390 --> 00:56:36,119 here 1416 00:56:39,829 --> 00:56:38,400 um I believe you know the the world is 1417 00:56:42,829 --> 00:56:39,839 not black and white and that we don't 1418 00:56:45,230 --> 00:56:42,839 know a fraction of what we will know and 1419 00:56:47,210 --> 00:56:45,240 understand about the world around us and 1420 00:56:50,030 --> 00:56:47,220 I believe you know I mean we're you know 1421 00:56:52,130 --> 00:56:50,040 I just there there is for me there is 1422 00:56:54,650 --> 00:56:52,140 something there because I can't explain 1423 00:56:56,930 --> 00:56:54,660 some of the things I've seen 1424 00:56:59,750 --> 00:56:56,940 when I look at specific cases I don't I 1425 00:57:01,790 --> 00:56:59,760 look at I'd look to Hesh Stalin to not 1426 00:57:04,130 --> 00:57:01,800 you know like one specific case but the 1427 00:57:07,250 --> 00:57:04,140 body of work and the data that they've 1428 00:57:10,609 --> 00:57:07,260 collected over the the decades and to me 1429 00:57:12,950 --> 00:57:10,619 that's intriguing I know narcap has some 1430 00:57:16,190 --> 00:57:12,960 great technical papers that they've also 1431 00:57:19,190 --> 00:57:16,200 done uh with specific cases of anomalous 1432 00:57:21,890 --> 00:57:19,200 light phenomena or or something that is 1433 00:57:24,410 --> 00:57:21,900 around aircraft 1434 00:57:26,809 --> 00:57:24,420 um but I don't have like I can't say 1435 00:57:30,069 --> 00:57:26,819 I've got one specific case that I think 1436 00:57:32,569 --> 00:57:30,079 is the end-all be-all um I wish I did 1437 00:57:34,490 --> 00:57:32,579 but I mean what the American Airlines 1438 00:57:38,049 --> 00:57:34,500 case that I worked on was pretty 1439 00:57:40,790 --> 00:57:38,059 spectacular but I'm just saying 1440 00:57:44,510 --> 00:57:40,800 so I don't know what about you 1441 00:57:48,490 --> 00:57:46,670 do you believe you followed G is 1442 00:57:51,530 --> 00:57:48,500 irredeemably corrupt 1443 00:57:54,410 --> 00:57:51,540 uh I actually do I think that it's um 1444 00:57:56,450 --> 00:57:54,420 there's more than just a historical 1445 00:57:57,829 --> 00:57:56,460 connection with um corruption and 1446 00:57:59,930 --> 00:57:57,839 shodiness I think that there is a 1447 00:58:02,089 --> 00:57:59,940 structural reason for it 1448 00:58:04,609 --> 00:58:02,099 which has to do with how it forms into 1449 00:58:07,250 --> 00:58:04,619 an echo chamber and that encourages 1450 00:58:09,410 --> 00:58:07,260 people to fabricate and to absorb 1451 00:58:11,750 --> 00:58:09,420 through cultural osmosis 1452 00:58:14,270 --> 00:58:11,760 um fictional narratives that then just 1453 00:58:16,609 --> 00:58:14,280 get regurgitated and passed around and 1454 00:58:17,630 --> 00:58:16,619 that itself influences experience and 1455 00:58:19,010 --> 00:58:17,640 perception 1456 00:58:21,890 --> 00:58:19,020 so 1457 00:58:24,650 --> 00:58:21,900 like deeper and more inherent about 1458 00:58:26,750 --> 00:58:24,660 corruption than just a incidental 1459 00:58:29,870 --> 00:58:26,760 Association 1460 00:58:32,210 --> 00:58:29,880 um and not to Pivot too strongly to ask 1461 00:58:34,430 --> 00:58:32,220 Louise questions but uh just as a 1462 00:58:35,930 --> 00:58:34,440 professional scientist just uh to dig in 1463 00:58:37,970 --> 00:58:35,940 for a second 1464 00:58:40,030 --> 00:58:37,980 for you as a professional scientist not 1465 00:58:44,630 --> 00:58:40,040 me if 1466 00:58:46,130 --> 00:58:44,640 if we throw ology onto the end of UFO it 1467 00:58:49,069 --> 00:58:46,140 sounds like you're trying to make it a 1468 00:58:52,010 --> 00:58:49,079 science right and maybe could you just 1469 00:58:53,750 --> 00:58:52,020 underline for me the most fundamental 1470 00:58:57,349 --> 00:58:53,760 differences that you would point to 1471 00:58:58,849 --> 00:58:57,359 between a science as a discipline where 1472 00:59:01,370 --> 00:58:58,859 you're trying to find out predictive 1473 00:59:03,470 --> 00:59:01,380 things about the world versus ufology as 1474 00:59:06,289 --> 00:59:03,480 it has existed up to this point 1475 00:59:09,410 --> 00:59:06,299 well ufology is absolutely drenched in 1476 00:59:11,990 --> 00:59:09,420 subjective and anecdotal accounts which 1477 00:59:12,829 --> 00:59:12,000 often take precedence 1478 00:59:14,690 --> 00:59:12,839 um 1479 00:59:16,190 --> 00:59:14,700 that's not something we we see in 1480 00:59:18,109 --> 00:59:16,200 science although there are some 1481 00:59:20,329 --> 00:59:18,119 exceptions but it seems to be an 1482 00:59:22,010 --> 00:59:20,339 integral part of ufology 1483 00:59:25,309 --> 00:59:22,020 so that's already gonna 1484 00:59:26,630 --> 00:59:25,319 bias um the conclusions 1485 00:59:28,430 --> 00:59:26,640 um the other thing is that people are 1486 00:59:31,490 --> 00:59:28,440 not very 1487 00:59:32,750 --> 00:59:31,500 cognizant of the role of statistics and 1488 00:59:36,289 --> 00:59:32,760 the importance of 1489 00:59:39,349 --> 00:59:36,299 things like blind tests and um controls 1490 00:59:41,750 --> 00:59:39,359 and in every other science they are okay 1491 00:59:43,910 --> 00:59:41,760 we try to think of some way to falsify 1492 00:59:47,150 --> 00:59:43,920 an idea we try to think of some way to 1493 00:59:50,089 --> 00:59:47,160 compare this case with you know a case 1494 00:59:51,410 --> 00:59:50,099 where we have taken out that factor to 1495 00:59:54,470 --> 00:59:51,420 see what actually 1496 00:59:57,530 --> 00:59:54,480 what remains and in ufology it seems 1497 01:00:00,470 --> 00:59:57,540 like uh that is not really 1498 01:00:02,870 --> 01:00:00,480 done uh properly anyway some people have 1499 01:00:05,930 --> 01:00:02,880 made forays into statistics but it seems 1500 01:00:07,430 --> 01:00:05,940 to be like um people just forget it 1501 01:00:11,270 --> 01:00:07,440 um and then they they revert back to 1502 01:00:15,710 --> 01:00:13,910 over to you Erica yeah 1503 01:00:18,950 --> 01:00:15,720 you know what I absolutely agree and I 1504 01:00:20,930 --> 01:00:18,960 want to go back to the corruption uh the 1505 01:00:23,390 --> 01:00:20,940 that aspect I mean I through my own 1506 01:00:24,829 --> 01:00:23,400 personal experiences and dealings with 1507 01:00:26,210 --> 01:00:24,839 some of these Shady characters I will 1508 01:00:29,510 --> 01:00:26,220 tell you I've seen 1509 01:00:32,450 --> 01:00:29,520 things and experience things that I that 1510 01:00:35,030 --> 01:00:32,460 are deeply deeply disturbing to me and 1511 01:00:37,789 --> 01:00:35,040 are frightening to be honest um I think 1512 01:00:39,370 --> 01:00:37,799 there's a whole level of really 1513 01:00:42,650 --> 01:00:39,380 um 1514 01:00:45,049 --> 01:00:42,660 uh I I think there's some pretty nasty 1515 01:00:47,510 --> 01:00:45,059 people involved in this that have a lot 1516 01:00:48,589 --> 01:00:47,520 of money invested in steering political 1517 01:00:52,670 --> 01:00:48,599 narratives 1518 01:00:54,349 --> 01:00:52,680 and influencing large groups of people 1519 01:00:57,170 --> 01:00:54,359 and I think the I always mentioned 1520 01:01:01,069 --> 01:00:57,180 Cambridge Cambridge analytica and what 1521 01:01:03,470 --> 01:01:01,079 that did to mine data into you know push 1522 01:01:06,829 --> 01:01:03,480 a specific narrative that in the end was 1523 01:01:09,950 --> 01:01:06,839 is is detrimental to democracy in my 1524 01:01:12,170 --> 01:01:09,960 opinion and I think of you know the I 1525 01:01:13,490 --> 01:01:12,180 think of coast to coast I think of some 1526 01:01:17,210 --> 01:01:13,500 of the guests that Coast to Coast has 1527 01:01:20,049 --> 01:01:17,220 had on historically at Alex Jones 1528 01:01:23,089 --> 01:01:20,059 um people that are absolutely 1529 01:01:25,549 --> 01:01:23,099 dangerous and 1530 01:01:26,690 --> 01:01:25,559 um you know it's and you get so you go 1531 01:01:29,150 --> 01:01:26,700 to Coast Coast you're hearing a 1532 01:01:31,250 --> 01:01:29,160 paranormal show you and then you know 1533 01:01:33,289 --> 01:01:31,260 Bigfoot and then oh my gosh this is so 1534 01:01:35,030 --> 01:01:33,299 cool late night I'm driving across the 1535 01:01:37,010 --> 01:01:35,040 country and then and then you get you 1536 01:01:38,650 --> 01:01:37,020 know Steve Bannon and then you get Roger 1537 01:01:41,030 --> 01:01:38,660 Stone and I mean 1538 01:01:43,450 --> 01:01:41,040 it's just like so you're you're being 1539 01:01:47,450 --> 01:01:43,460 manipulated and this isn't a small thing 1540 01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:47,460 this is a large orchestrated effort with 1541 01:01:52,549 --> 01:01:50,160 a lot of money behind it it has done a 1542 01:01:55,609 --> 01:01:52,559 lot of damage not just here but today we 1543 01:01:58,309 --> 01:01:55,619 had the breaking news about uh what was 1544 01:01:59,630 --> 01:01:58,319 taking place in Germany with that uh 1545 01:02:01,490 --> 01:01:59,640 right-wing faction where they were 1546 01:02:03,589 --> 01:02:01,500 trying to overthrow the government and 1547 01:02:06,829 --> 01:02:03,599 there were 3 000 you know officers 1548 01:02:09,470 --> 01:02:06,839 involved in this large uh effort to 1549 01:02:13,010 --> 01:02:09,480 round up people you know that were 1550 01:02:16,430 --> 01:02:13,020 posing a significant threat uh to to 1551 01:02:18,349 --> 01:02:16,440 Germany and so this is a big thing it 1552 01:02:20,329 --> 01:02:18,359 it's it's you know we talk about the 1553 01:02:22,130 --> 01:02:20,339 dark cabal and all of this crap and I'm 1554 01:02:23,510 --> 01:02:22,140 the people that are promoting that stuff 1555 01:02:26,270 --> 01:02:23,520 are actually the people that are 1556 01:02:29,150 --> 01:02:26,280 involved in it and we need to this is 1557 01:02:31,130 --> 01:02:29,160 this is not a small thing and I know 1558 01:02:32,990 --> 01:02:31,140 this firsthand I've seen 1559 01:02:34,430 --> 01:02:33,000 you know this person come into my life 1560 01:02:37,789 --> 01:02:34,440 I've seen this person walk into my 1561 01:02:38,750 --> 01:02:37,799 studio I've seen this another person you 1562 01:02:42,349 --> 01:02:38,760 know I mean 1563 01:02:45,589 --> 01:02:42,359 I've had a group of of people that are 1564 01:02:48,890 --> 01:02:45,599 notable people in this community that 1565 01:02:51,530 --> 01:02:48,900 have tried to promote satanic uh ritual 1566 01:02:52,849 --> 01:02:51,540 abuse that have tried to promote all of 1567 01:02:55,250 --> 01:02:52,859 these things and have gone to Great 1568 01:02:57,230 --> 01:02:55,260 Lengths to steer a narrative that I was 1569 01:02:58,970 --> 01:02:57,240 putting forward to the public and this 1570 01:03:00,950 --> 01:02:58,980 has been year after year 1571 01:03:03,470 --> 01:03:00,960 this is documented you wouldn't believe 1572 01:03:06,650 --> 01:03:03,480 some of the stuff that I that I have 1573 01:03:08,809 --> 01:03:06,660 that I've shared with people to make 1574 01:03:11,390 --> 01:03:08,819 sure it goes to the right place it's 1575 01:03:12,950 --> 01:03:11,400 been very unnerving 1576 01:03:15,410 --> 01:03:12,960 and 1577 01:03:17,569 --> 01:03:15,420 um so it's I have not done this lightly 1578 01:03:20,450 --> 01:03:17,579 this isn't a conspiracy I have I have 1579 01:03:24,849 --> 01:03:20,460 all the evidence to back everything up 1580 01:03:28,609 --> 01:03:24,859 and so it's it's not a game and people's 1581 01:03:30,950 --> 01:03:28,619 livelihoods are are dependent on this 1582 01:03:33,890 --> 01:03:30,960 grift this this movement behind the 1583 01:03:37,569 --> 01:03:33,900 scenes so or in public playing public 1584 01:03:41,450 --> 01:03:39,349 to um 1585 01:03:43,670 --> 01:03:41,460 clean up its act because this has been 1586 01:03:45,650 --> 01:03:43,680 going on for decades and you sometimes 1587 01:03:48,650 --> 01:03:45,660 hear pronouncements by like whoever the 1588 01:03:50,450 --> 01:03:48,660 head of mufon or somebody saying 1589 01:03:52,370 --> 01:03:50,460 you followed just to get back to science 1590 01:03:54,829 --> 01:03:52,380 and then 1591 01:03:56,870 --> 01:03:54,839 they make some moves in that direction 1592 01:03:58,910 --> 01:03:56,880 for a while but then it kind of 1593 01:04:00,609 --> 01:03:58,920 degenerates again 1594 01:04:03,170 --> 01:04:00,619 that speaks to a kind of inherent 1595 01:04:07,609 --> 01:04:03,180 Dynamic doesn't it 1596 01:04:12,530 --> 01:04:10,430 um it yeah it but you know it's like we 1597 01:04:13,789 --> 01:04:12,540 look at it in an organization like mufon 1598 01:04:15,650 --> 01:04:13,799 and I think 1599 01:04:17,990 --> 01:04:15,660 obviously 1600 01:04:21,109 --> 01:04:18,000 it probably needs to be put to pasture 1601 01:04:22,250 --> 01:04:21,119 if I mean or or we need to as the 1602 01:04:24,589 --> 01:04:22,260 general public and I think this is 1603 01:04:26,750 --> 01:04:24,599 happening you know we need to not take 1604 01:04:29,450 --> 01:04:26,760 it seriously we know it for what it is 1605 01:04:31,849 --> 01:04:29,460 it's you know the Mary Kay cosmetics 1606 01:04:34,490 --> 01:04:31,859 club for everybody it's like let's sit 1607 01:04:35,990 --> 01:04:34,500 around and have a barbecue and talk 1608 01:04:37,970 --> 01:04:36,000 about wild stuff and then do nothing 1609 01:04:41,750 --> 01:04:37,980 with data but sell it to the highest 1610 01:04:43,789 --> 01:04:41,760 bidder and a the Mr Bigelow can sit in 1611 01:04:45,530 --> 01:04:43,799 Vegas and do the Lord knows what with 1612 01:04:49,069 --> 01:04:45,540 with people's personal information 1613 01:04:51,230 --> 01:04:49,079 that's really frightening and so we need 1614 01:04:52,849 --> 01:04:51,240 to just say that that's what it is we're 1615 01:04:55,730 --> 01:04:52,859 not going to support it 1616 01:04:58,250 --> 01:04:55,740 um and then we need to to move forward 1617 01:05:01,609 --> 01:04:58,260 in in a positive way but Mike there is 1618 01:05:03,890 --> 01:05:01,619 so much so much corruption and I really 1619 01:05:05,630 --> 01:05:03,900 I commend you for what you're doing and 1620 01:05:09,170 --> 01:05:05,640 trying to from a very rational 1621 01:05:11,030 --> 01:05:09,180 perspective expose expose that and we 1622 01:05:13,250 --> 01:05:11,040 need we need to do more of that and I 1623 01:05:14,569 --> 01:05:13,260 think when I look at you know over the 1624 01:05:16,730 --> 01:05:14,579 years I've mentioned this on my show 1625 01:05:20,030 --> 01:05:16,740 multiple times but when I got into this 1626 01:05:22,309 --> 01:05:20,040 I went to every person that was a UFO 1627 01:05:24,710 --> 01:05:22,319 rock star and I said how we're going to 1628 01:05:26,150 --> 01:05:24,720 make this place the subject better and 1629 01:05:27,589 --> 01:05:26,160 every single one of them said well we're 1630 01:05:29,390 --> 01:05:27,599 not this is the way it is and I think 1631 01:05:31,190 --> 01:05:29,400 that's such a powered way 1632 01:05:33,349 --> 01:05:31,200 you know of dealing with things that's 1633 01:05:35,569 --> 01:05:33,359 cowardly that's you know you're not 1634 01:05:38,150 --> 01:05:35,579 because you don't have the the 1635 01:05:40,609 --> 01:05:38,160 um fortitude to expose unethical 1636 01:05:42,710 --> 01:05:40,619 Behavior it's not comfortable I don't 1637 01:05:45,589 --> 01:05:42,720 want to do it I know you guys well maybe 1638 01:05:47,990 --> 01:05:45,599 we do I mean but it's not an easy path 1639 01:05:50,329 --> 01:05:48,000 that we have to do it 1640 01:05:51,710 --> 01:05:50,339 because people's lives are being 1641 01:05:54,470 --> 01:05:51,720 affected 1642 01:05:56,270 --> 01:05:54,480 and we can make I mean now I'm feeling 1643 01:05:58,030 --> 01:05:56,280 I'm feeling good guys now I know we can 1644 01:06:01,670 --> 01:05:58,040 make a change I really 1645 01:06:03,410 --> 01:06:01,680 five of us we can do it yeah I mean it's 1646 01:06:06,049 --> 01:06:03,420 it's you're gonna get my pom-poms out 1647 01:06:07,970 --> 01:06:06,059 yeah baby to do this to do it's 1648 01:06:10,609 --> 01:06:07,980 thankless exhausting work 1649 01:06:16,130 --> 01:06:10,619 um particularly when this is 1650 01:06:21,710 --> 01:06:19,910 um passivity by making its major players 1651 01:06:23,690 --> 01:06:21,720 Out Of Reach if you have any sort of 1652 01:06:25,370 --> 01:06:23,700 criticism or pushback on the reviews or 1653 01:06:27,529 --> 01:06:25,380 thoughts and this is categorically 1654 01:06:29,750 --> 01:06:27,539 different than virtually any other area 1655 01:06:32,329 --> 01:06:29,760 of study in any other area of study some 1656 01:06:34,010 --> 01:06:32,339 kind of genuine interrogation or debate 1657 01:06:36,289 --> 01:06:34,020 would be very welcome as an opportunity 1658 01:06:38,930 --> 01:06:36,299 to sort of collaboratively in the 1659 01:06:40,730 --> 01:06:38,940 dialectical process like build more 1660 01:06:42,529 --> 01:06:40,740 robust and resilient views of the 1661 01:06:44,510 --> 01:06:42,539 subject so I think we see this sort of 1662 01:06:47,510 --> 01:06:44,520 brittleness in the community when 1663 01:06:48,829 --> 01:06:47,520 there's no kind of pushback available 1664 01:06:50,210 --> 01:06:48,839 um or allowed 1665 01:06:51,710 --> 01:06:50,220 um but Erica one of the things that 1666 01:06:56,690 --> 01:06:51,720 strikes me 1667 01:07:00,410 --> 01:06:56,700 um so much is I'm a big believer in um 1668 01:07:02,870 --> 01:07:00,420 strength and unity I'm a big believer in 1669 01:07:06,470 --> 01:07:02,880 in unions in general and I think that 1670 01:07:09,230 --> 01:07:06,480 there's something to say about finding 1671 01:07:11,750 --> 01:07:09,240 um opportunities for cooperation and 1672 01:07:13,309 --> 01:07:11,760 collaboration across the aisle 1673 01:07:14,510 --> 01:07:13,319 um and I see this particularly for the 1674 01:07:16,309 --> 01:07:14,520 people who are on this show right now 1675 01:07:17,890 --> 01:07:16,319 not all of us have the same views but we 1676 01:07:20,390 --> 01:07:17,900 all understand the critical 1677 01:07:21,770 --> 01:07:20,400 necessity of doing this kind of work and 1678 01:07:23,750 --> 01:07:21,780 I'm seriously interrogating the subject 1679 01:07:26,630 --> 01:07:23,760 and I think kind of the more people we 1680 01:07:28,490 --> 01:07:26,640 are able to fold into that view even if 1681 01:07:31,430 --> 01:07:28,500 our actual beliefs on this subject May 1682 01:07:33,890 --> 01:07:31,440 differ the more we'll be able to affect 1683 01:07:35,930 --> 01:07:33,900 see change and I think like we're we are 1684 01:07:37,789 --> 01:07:35,940 stronger when we work together full stop 1685 01:07:39,470 --> 01:07:37,799 and like when you talk about the sort of 1686 01:07:41,750 --> 01:07:39,480 Personality Cults that have Arisen in 1687 01:07:44,329 --> 01:07:41,760 the community they are very unified they 1688 01:07:46,490 --> 01:07:44,339 are very cohesive and the only way you 1689 01:07:47,450 --> 01:07:46,500 can do any kind of 1690 01:07:49,849 --> 01:07:47,460 um 1691 01:07:52,510 --> 01:07:49,859 any work to counter that is to be 1692 01:07:54,410 --> 01:07:52,520 similarly unified in the approach 1693 01:07:55,849 --> 01:07:54,420 absolutely and I think that's so 1694 01:07:58,069 --> 01:07:55,859 important and I know for me I mean I've 1695 01:08:00,650 --> 01:07:58,079 been out there spitting in the Wind on 1696 01:08:02,510 --> 01:08:00,660 my own for a long time and that in most 1697 01:08:04,910 --> 01:08:02,520 people I mean that's a hard thing to do 1698 01:08:07,370 --> 01:08:04,920 and I wouldn't recommend it and so it is 1699 01:08:10,130 --> 01:08:07,380 nice to know that I've got people that 1700 01:08:12,069 --> 01:08:10,140 are out there supporting me and kind of 1701 01:08:14,089 --> 01:08:12,079 shielding me from some of the the 1702 01:08:15,890 --> 01:08:14,099 nonsense that I've been through and I 1703 01:08:17,749 --> 01:08:15,900 think that we all should have that that 1704 01:08:19,849 --> 01:08:17,759 strength in unity I think that's a 1705 01:08:22,490 --> 01:08:19,859 really important thing and you know we 1706 01:08:24,110 --> 01:08:22,500 look at the players that are uh you know 1707 01:08:26,390 --> 01:08:24,120 that have been involved in the subject 1708 01:08:28,849 --> 01:08:26,400 for a long time and I fully believe that 1709 01:08:32,110 --> 01:08:28,859 they are paying new people they're 1710 01:08:34,610 --> 01:08:32,120 finding Talent obviously or lack thereof 1711 01:08:36,650 --> 01:08:34,620 people that are bored and don't need 1712 01:08:38,510 --> 01:08:36,660 some money or something living in the 1713 01:08:40,610 --> 01:08:38,520 basement and you know they're paying 1714 01:08:43,430 --> 01:08:40,620 these people to go out and start these 1715 01:08:45,769 --> 01:08:43,440 shows to start you know online campaigns 1716 01:08:48,289 --> 01:08:45,779 to bully other people and I I believe 1717 01:08:52,130 --> 01:08:48,299 that that is a concerted f effort you 1718 01:08:55,550 --> 01:08:52,140 know we've seen that with a certain uh 1719 01:08:58,189 --> 01:08:55,560 Lou Elizondo and and people like that so 1720 01:09:01,309 --> 01:08:58,199 I think it is important to stand up and 1721 01:09:03,650 --> 01:09:01,319 protect each other and to move forward 1722 01:09:05,990 --> 01:09:03,660 I do uh I do want to Echo what Leo's 1723 01:09:08,030 --> 01:09:06,000 saying it is really a benefit at least 1724 01:09:09,470 --> 01:09:08,040 in in this group now that we are all 1725 01:09:12,169 --> 01:09:09,480 coming from different perspectives 1726 01:09:13,669 --> 01:09:12,179 because it really kind of prevents us to 1727 01:09:15,169 --> 01:09:13,679 getting you a route where we're speaking 1728 01:09:17,809 --> 01:09:15,179 to your we're preaching to the choir 1729 01:09:18,829 --> 01:09:17,819 which is something I experienced a while 1730 01:09:20,269 --> 01:09:18,839 back 1731 01:09:23,689 --> 01:09:20,279 um when I was working on skeptical 1732 01:09:25,849 --> 01:09:23,699 magazine these these kind of uh projects 1733 01:09:28,130 --> 01:09:25,859 can work only towards certain groups and 1734 01:09:29,450 --> 01:09:28,140 like Luis was saying just become Echo 1735 01:09:30,849 --> 01:09:29,460 Chambers and stuff like that so I think 1736 01:09:33,289 --> 01:09:30,859 it's really refreshing to get 1737 01:09:35,150 --> 01:09:33,299 perspectives from from each angle kind 1738 01:09:36,829 --> 01:09:35,160 of like where we're uh discussing 1739 01:09:38,870 --> 01:09:36,839 earlier 1740 01:09:41,269 --> 01:09:38,880 absolutely 1741 01:09:42,950 --> 01:09:41,279 now I'm very I'm so happy that I know 1742 01:09:44,930 --> 01:09:42,960 all of you and I'm I like I said I 1743 01:09:47,209 --> 01:09:44,940 respect each of you and I'm I'm really 1744 01:09:48,349 --> 01:09:47,219 looking forward to us collaborating in 1745 01:09:50,470 --> 01:09:48,359 the future 1746 01:09:53,510 --> 01:09:50,480 or tonight tomorrow 1747 01:09:56,150 --> 01:09:53,520 next year I think 2023 is going to be a 1748 01:09:58,130 --> 01:09:56,160 great year for all of us so 1749 01:09:59,930 --> 01:09:58,140 yes I'm hoping it's the year I can 1750 01:10:02,150 --> 01:09:59,940 convince my colleagues here to go to a 1751 01:10:04,250 --> 01:10:02,160 conference I want to go with you but 1752 01:10:05,810 --> 01:10:04,260 it's all like I was man Erica so I'm 1753 01:10:07,250 --> 01:10:05,820 like sitting in this conference thinking 1754 01:10:09,350 --> 01:10:07,260 to myself oh my God I'm surrounded by 1755 01:10:11,689 --> 01:10:09,360 all these UFO people and I was like oh 1756 01:10:13,070 --> 01:10:11,699 [\h__\h] I'm a UFO person now because the 1757 01:10:14,450 --> 01:10:13,080 first time you just go for the 1758 01:10:15,890 --> 01:10:14,460 experience but when you go the second 1759 01:10:17,689 --> 01:10:15,900 time it's like because you actually 1760 01:10:20,510 --> 01:10:17,699 wanted to go 1761 01:10:22,910 --> 01:10:20,520 um but um yeah I think like well and I 1762 01:10:24,410 --> 01:10:22,920 think it's like this we're in the middle 1763 01:10:25,790 --> 01:10:24,420 of a flap like people are paying more 1764 01:10:27,530 --> 01:10:25,800 attention to this subject than we're 1765 01:10:29,750 --> 01:10:27,540 interested in it and I think providing 1766 01:10:31,850 --> 01:10:29,760 like counter narratives to the subject 1767 01:10:34,010 --> 01:10:31,860 instead of just what has nominated the 1768 01:10:35,930 --> 01:10:34,020 covers of different newspapers is is 1769 01:10:37,669 --> 01:10:35,940 important and I think the other thing 1770 01:10:38,990 --> 01:10:37,679 too and this comes up in a lot of 1771 01:10:42,709 --> 01:10:39,000 conversations 1772 01:10:46,729 --> 01:10:44,510 um there's this kind of myopia to think 1773 01:10:48,890 --> 01:10:46,739 that all of UFO Twitter is all that 1774 01:10:50,810 --> 01:10:48,900 there is to ufology but there is just 1775 01:10:53,090 --> 01:10:50,820 this incredible constellation of of 1776 01:10:54,709 --> 01:10:53,100 researchers and workers Erica a lot of 1777 01:10:56,390 --> 01:10:54,719 the people you work with like Barry or 1778 01:10:58,250 --> 01:10:56,400 even Jack he's not like a super loud 1779 01:11:01,250 --> 01:10:58,260 voice on Twitter 1780 01:11:03,229 --> 01:11:01,260 um and creating visible spaces for 1781 01:11:05,510 --> 01:11:03,239 people to be exposed to people that are 1782 01:11:08,090 --> 01:11:05,520 to researchers and thinkers on the 1783 01:11:09,350 --> 01:11:08,100 subject that truly set the bar much 1784 01:11:11,870 --> 01:11:09,360 higher than what people are 1785 01:11:12,890 --> 01:11:11,880 conventionally used used to 1786 01:11:15,050 --> 01:11:12,900 um and I think there's just huge 1787 01:11:16,610 --> 01:11:15,060 opportunity to do that 1788 01:11:18,169 --> 01:11:16,620 I think you're right and I think it has 1789 01:11:20,030 --> 01:11:18,179 nothing to do with hashtag UFO Twitter 1790 01:11:21,830 --> 01:11:20,040 so yeah 1791 01:11:24,169 --> 01:11:21,840 I'm with you 1792 01:11:25,790 --> 01:11:24,179 yeah I think that's it's a good good 1793 01:11:28,189 --> 01:11:25,800 thing so 1794 01:11:30,530 --> 01:11:28,199 and now we've been uh dwelling uh 1795 01:11:34,910 --> 01:11:30,540 justifiably on some of these more 1796 01:11:37,729 --> 01:11:34,920 negative or serious it's almost scary in 1797 01:11:39,470 --> 01:11:37,739 some ways aspects of ufology and the UFO 1798 01:11:42,770 --> 01:11:39,480 subject in general 1799 01:11:45,169 --> 01:11:42,780 that said we we all got into it because 1800 01:11:48,350 --> 01:11:45,179 of something right usually it would be a 1801 01:11:50,390 --> 01:11:48,360 positive inclination something caught 1802 01:11:52,669 --> 01:11:50,400 our eye or got interested in the subject 1803 01:11:54,110 --> 01:11:52,679 I know that that is what motivated me 1804 01:11:57,229 --> 01:11:54,120 initially and 1805 01:12:00,470 --> 01:11:57,239 I like to think that the positivity of 1806 01:12:03,229 --> 01:12:00,480 the Explorer's spirit is what keeps me 1807 01:12:04,850 --> 01:12:03,239 here rather than purely uh fighting 1808 01:12:07,669 --> 01:12:04,860 against the negative although I think 1809 01:12:11,990 --> 01:12:07,679 that's a critical thing as well uh Erica 1810 01:12:14,990 --> 01:12:12,000 for you what what first do you remember 1811 01:12:18,290 --> 01:12:15,000 the feeling that got you excited about 1812 01:12:21,050 --> 01:12:18,300 this subject and uh what what would you 1813 01:12:22,970 --> 01:12:21,060 describe as the positive feeling that 1814 01:12:26,209 --> 01:12:22,980 would motivate you to stick with it now 1815 01:12:27,770 --> 01:12:26,219 after uh having so many uh a mixture of 1816 01:12:30,110 --> 01:12:27,780 positive but also negative experiences 1817 01:12:31,550 --> 01:12:30,120 in the subject you know I mean I you 1818 01:12:33,649 --> 01:12:31,560 know like I said I remember like picking 1819 01:12:35,570 --> 01:12:33,659 up a book in grade school you know and 1820 01:12:38,090 --> 01:12:35,580 just thinking wow wow God there's so 1821 01:12:40,970 --> 01:12:38,100 many cool things to explore and then you 1822 01:12:42,709 --> 01:12:40,980 know I mean we I mean reading with Lee 1823 01:12:44,390 --> 01:12:42,719 strieber which whatever I mean I'm not 1824 01:12:46,850 --> 01:12:44,400 gonna go there but I mean I did that did 1825 01:12:49,910 --> 01:12:46,860 open my mind to 1826 01:12:51,169 --> 01:12:49,920 things you know back in in you know a 1827 01:12:52,970 --> 01:12:51,179 certain decade which I'm not even gonna 1828 01:12:54,350 --> 01:12:52,980 I can't even verbum because I'm 1829 01:12:57,290 --> 01:12:54,360 pretending I'm much younger than I am 1830 01:12:59,390 --> 01:12:57,300 but um you know I mean just like I I 1831 01:13:01,370 --> 01:12:59,400 mean just it's just going out and 1832 01:13:03,350 --> 01:13:01,380 exploring and having an adventure and I 1833 01:13:04,910 --> 01:13:03,360 think for me like I always go back to 1834 01:13:07,130 --> 01:13:04,920 when I'm feeling 1835 01:13:08,630 --> 01:13:07,140 you know like I mean the I know the 1836 01:13:11,149 --> 01:13:08,640 players in the subject I know the 1837 01:13:12,709 --> 01:13:11,159 shadiness I've seen it I'll do my best 1838 01:13:16,370 --> 01:13:12,719 to expose it 1839 01:13:17,689 --> 01:13:16,380 um as will Jack uh Brewer but for me I 1840 01:13:19,490 --> 01:13:17,699 have to go back to that positive place 1841 01:13:22,250 --> 01:13:19,500 which is really important to keep me 1842 01:13:25,070 --> 01:13:22,260 grounded and that would be sitting in 1843 01:13:29,810 --> 01:13:25,080 standing in the middle of a field 1844 01:13:31,310 --> 01:13:29,820 in Norway with airling Strand and 1845 01:13:34,430 --> 01:13:31,320 um some of these you know a couple 1846 01:13:35,709 --> 01:13:34,440 Italian uh scientists and looking up at 1847 01:13:39,169 --> 01:13:35,719 the night sky 1848 01:13:41,570 --> 01:13:39,179 and asking questions and just knowing 1849 01:13:44,630 --> 01:13:41,580 that there is you know there are so many 1850 01:13:46,070 --> 01:13:44,640 exciting things to explore and so that's 1851 01:13:49,610 --> 01:13:46,080 why I kind of said goodbye to UFO 1852 01:13:51,169 --> 01:13:49,620 classified and then hello to this new uh 1853 01:13:53,390 --> 01:13:51,179 research that we're doing in the new 1854 01:13:55,610 --> 01:13:53,400 show where I can reach out to people 1855 01:13:57,890 --> 01:13:55,620 that are you know working on the NASA 1856 01:13:59,090 --> 01:13:57,900 rover project they're doing things that 1857 01:14:00,830 --> 01:13:59,100 are groundbreaking and they're doing 1858 01:14:03,530 --> 01:14:00,840 things in a positive and productive way 1859 01:14:05,689 --> 01:14:03,540 and I can reach out and and talk with 1860 01:14:07,550 --> 01:14:05,699 them and then add a bigger perspective 1861 01:14:10,130 --> 01:14:07,560 which is more exciting and getting back 1862 01:14:12,770 --> 01:14:10,140 to that you know yes I love this I love 1863 01:14:15,410 --> 01:14:12,780 exploring and empowering you know people 1864 01:14:18,169 --> 01:14:15,420 and so that's for me where I want to go 1865 01:14:20,930 --> 01:14:18,179 next because I've I am you know been 1866 01:14:23,810 --> 01:14:20,940 been places and done that and it's time 1867 01:14:26,390 --> 01:14:23,820 to move move forward and and 1868 01:14:28,970 --> 01:14:26,400 you know I don't know I'm I'm excited so 1869 01:14:30,709 --> 01:14:28,980 this I am an Explorer and I will even 1870 01:14:33,050 --> 01:14:30,719 though they're gonna they tried to break 1871 01:14:35,330 --> 01:14:33,060 my Explorer Spirit you know too bad for 1872 01:14:36,410 --> 01:14:35,340 them because I'm still here and that's 1873 01:14:37,970 --> 01:14:36,420 probably not going to work out for 1874 01:14:41,570 --> 01:14:37,980 people that are grifting in the long run 1875 01:14:47,689 --> 01:14:44,209 that was a deep thought 1876 01:14:49,910 --> 01:14:47,699 I appreciate that it's uh I really am uh 1877 01:14:51,649 --> 01:14:49,920 genuinely appreciating your responses 1878 01:14:53,330 --> 01:14:51,659 sometimes I I'm just coming up with 1879 01:14:56,209 --> 01:14:53,340 questions as I hear things that's how I 1880 01:14:58,310 --> 01:14:56,219 do this so uh I apologize if they aren't 1881 01:15:00,290 --> 01:14:58,320 uh well structured but I I'm really 1882 01:15:02,390 --> 01:15:00,300 enjoying it I like your questions oh 1883 01:15:04,310 --> 01:15:02,400 thank you 1884 01:15:06,890 --> 01:15:04,320 um yeah but uh the physical science I 1885 01:15:08,450 --> 01:15:06,900 agree entirely that is what is so 1886 01:15:10,729 --> 01:15:08,460 exciting getting out there and finding 1887 01:15:12,530 --> 01:15:10,739 new information right and uh from 1888 01:15:14,810 --> 01:15:12,540 hearing your story about mufon that was 1889 01:15:16,189 --> 01:15:14,820 what inspired you there as well and it 1890 01:15:18,590 --> 01:15:16,199 was almost like it sounded like it was 1891 01:15:20,870 --> 01:15:18,600 those barriers in the institution that 1892 01:15:22,370 --> 01:15:20,880 became a little bit uninspiring there 1893 01:15:24,229 --> 01:15:22,380 and so you went off and did your own 1894 01:15:26,290 --> 01:15:24,239 thing and 1895 01:15:29,510 --> 01:15:26,300 right now it's it sounds sort of like 1896 01:15:32,030 --> 01:15:29,520 you're trying to set something up for 1897 01:15:34,010 --> 01:15:32,040 people so that they can maybe jump past 1898 01:15:36,169 --> 01:15:34,020 some of those things that you had to go 1899 01:15:38,570 --> 01:15:36,179 through to get to where you are now am I 1900 01:15:40,370 --> 01:15:38,580 uh am I picking that up absolutely yeah 1901 01:15:42,410 --> 01:15:40,380 thank you thank you for summarizing that 1902 01:15:44,689 --> 01:15:42,420 so beautifully but yeah I mean I I want 1903 01:15:47,209 --> 01:15:44,699 people to learn from the mistakes that 1904 01:15:48,830 --> 01:15:47,219 I've made and it's there it's all out 1905 01:15:50,990 --> 01:15:48,840 there you can go back and listen to UFO 1906 01:15:53,750 --> 01:15:51,000 classified and see it and 1907 01:15:55,970 --> 01:15:53,760 oh boy it's been it's been a wild road 1908 01:15:58,790 --> 01:15:55,980 but I mean yeah learn learn from this 1909 01:16:00,649 --> 01:15:58,800 and let's quit going back in in this 1910 01:16:02,930 --> 01:16:00,659 little Rat Hole or whatever spinning 1911 01:16:04,550 --> 01:16:02,940 hamster wheel and doing the same old 1912 01:16:07,790 --> 01:16:04,560 thing it's like okay we've been there 1913 01:16:09,890 --> 01:16:07,800 we've done that 70 years later what's 1914 01:16:13,970 --> 01:16:09,900 been done you know really 1915 01:16:16,130 --> 01:16:13,980 maybe not a lot but now's our time so 1916 01:16:18,050 --> 01:16:16,140 so what what are the things we've talked 1917 01:16:20,450 --> 01:16:18,060 about a lot uh both you and I and then 1918 01:16:23,630 --> 01:16:20,460 also on this show is the nature of data 1919 01:16:25,070 --> 01:16:23,640 and data collection within the subject 1920 01:16:28,610 --> 01:16:25,080 um and I'm very curious what your 1921 01:16:31,370 --> 01:16:28,620 thoughts are on the future of data 1922 01:16:34,550 --> 01:16:31,380 collection in this subject and what we 1923 01:16:37,490 --> 01:16:34,560 can learn from historic mistakes or 1924 01:16:39,830 --> 01:16:37,500 missteps around data and ufology to 1925 01:16:41,290 --> 01:16:39,840 ensure we don't repeat those errors in 1926 01:16:44,270 --> 01:16:41,300 the future 1927 01:16:46,910 --> 01:16:44,280 that's a wonderful question and that's a 1928 01:16:49,070 --> 01:16:46,920 question that I'm I am 1929 01:16:51,110 --> 01:16:49,080 trying to figure out because they're you 1930 01:16:53,450 --> 01:16:51,120 know again we've always had this 1931 01:16:55,010 --> 01:16:53,460 this kind of black hole of the 1932 01:16:57,950 --> 01:16:55,020 information is in the hands of The 1933 01:17:00,110 --> 01:16:57,960 Gatekeepers the information is going to 1934 01:17:02,450 --> 01:17:00,120 this place and well only if you've got 1935 01:17:04,610 --> 01:17:02,460 the secret handshake and you knock twice 1936 01:17:06,830 --> 01:17:04,620 at the door and you know turn on and off 1937 01:17:08,930 --> 01:17:06,840 your porch lights you can get access to 1938 01:17:11,870 --> 01:17:08,940 this information and I think that it's 1939 01:17:16,490 --> 01:17:11,880 that's still happening and that bothers 1940 01:17:19,850 --> 01:17:16,500 me and so what are we going to do to to 1941 01:17:21,709 --> 01:17:19,860 move forward uh and and I don't know and 1942 01:17:24,830 --> 01:17:21,719 I would love your suggestions because I 1943 01:17:26,810 --> 01:17:24,840 still see this happening and it is it's 1944 01:17:29,270 --> 01:17:26,820 a difficult task to to spend your money 1945 01:17:31,910 --> 01:17:29,280 and to get these archives and and to 1946 01:17:33,290 --> 01:17:31,920 digitize things but we need to do that 1947 01:17:36,110 --> 01:17:33,300 we need to make sure that people like 1948 01:17:39,110 --> 01:17:36,120 Bigelow aren't behind the scenes and 1949 01:17:41,570 --> 01:17:39,120 sweeping up information I mean where 1950 01:17:45,169 --> 01:17:41,580 where is any of this data 1951 01:17:47,750 --> 01:17:45,179 right I mean like AFU is put forward 1952 01:17:49,189 --> 01:17:47,760 things I know that Barry Greenwood has 1953 01:17:52,189 --> 01:17:49,199 has put forward things he's always 1954 01:17:54,770 --> 01:17:52,199 always been very generous uh with me Jen 1955 01:17:56,689 --> 01:17:54,780 Aldrich has as well but I mean 1956 01:17:58,370 --> 01:17:56,699 somebody's done a lot of digitizing over 1957 01:18:01,610 --> 01:17:58,380 the years 1958 01:18:05,570 --> 01:18:01,620 where where is all of it 1959 01:18:07,790 --> 01:18:05,580 nobody knows well some people do 1960 01:18:09,950 --> 01:18:07,800 um and piggybacking on this question and 1961 01:18:12,229 --> 01:18:09,960 this is just because I'm an inveterate 1962 01:18:13,490 --> 01:18:12,239 nerd about physical media talk to me 1963 01:18:14,750 --> 01:18:13,500 about some of the cool stuff in your 1964 01:18:16,970 --> 01:18:14,760 collection that you're excited about 1965 01:18:19,070 --> 01:18:16,980 digitizing 1966 01:18:20,630 --> 01:18:19,080 you know I think oh my gosh I've got so 1967 01:18:22,610 --> 01:18:20,640 much I'm just the biggest nerd and I 1968 01:18:25,070 --> 01:18:22,620 will say as much as I'm looking behind 1969 01:18:27,350 --> 01:18:25,080 you and I'm like oh man there's like 1970 01:18:30,290 --> 01:18:27,360 there's it's a gold mine I know oh my 1971 01:18:32,149 --> 01:18:30,300 God you have no idea like literally if 1972 01:18:34,669 --> 01:18:32,159 you know I'm so glad I've got this 1973 01:18:36,470 --> 01:18:34,679 because I think like I said if certain 1974 01:18:38,990 --> 01:18:36,480 Gatekeepers knew I had the information 1975 01:18:40,850 --> 01:18:39,000 that I do it would you know wouldn't be 1976 01:18:41,990 --> 01:18:40,860 the best but I mean I've got like I 1977 01:18:44,330 --> 01:18:42,000 mentioned 1978 01:18:46,669 --> 01:18:44,340 um on my last show I've got all of these 1979 01:18:49,189 --> 01:18:46,679 uh the center for UFO studies rodiger 1980 01:18:51,229 --> 01:18:49,199 abductee study you know I've got some of 1981 01:18:53,870 --> 01:18:51,239 these oh my gosh I've got correspondence 1982 01:18:56,750 --> 01:18:53,880 for the center for UFOs 1983 01:18:58,669 --> 01:18:56,760 um UFO Abduction detection 1984 01:19:01,370 --> 01:18:58,679 um I've got all of the exchanges between 1985 01:19:03,530 --> 01:19:01,380 Walt Andrus and Anne ruffle and some of 1986 01:19:05,930 --> 01:19:03,540 the people in mufon that go back you 1987 01:19:08,510 --> 01:19:05,940 know decades and so I've got I'm just 1988 01:19:11,450 --> 01:19:08,520 it's just insane all the but I'm sorry 1989 01:19:14,330 --> 01:19:11,460 I'm nerding out now but I mean this is 1990 01:19:17,090 --> 01:19:14,340 awesome don't stop no I mean Los Angeles 1991 01:19:19,750 --> 01:19:17,100 uh nycap subcommittee I mean and you 1992 01:19:22,729 --> 01:19:19,760 look at you know I mean this it's like 1993 01:19:25,070 --> 01:19:22,739 1972 this is to Stuart Nixon 1994 01:19:28,790 --> 01:19:25,080 I think maybe one or two people have 1995 01:19:31,250 --> 01:19:28,800 seen this Stuart Nixon and and Ann uh 1996 01:19:34,850 --> 01:19:31,260 druffle and so it's just like page after 1997 01:19:37,910 --> 01:19:34,860 page of these things and I'm just 1998 01:19:39,950 --> 01:19:37,920 it's it's fascinating I'm so nerding out 1999 01:19:41,330 --> 01:19:39,960 and excited to share that and preserve 2000 01:19:43,850 --> 01:19:41,340 it and to make sure that people see that 2001 01:19:45,290 --> 01:19:43,860 because like I said there are exchanges 2002 01:19:47,689 --> 01:19:45,300 and correspondence that people don't 2003 01:19:50,149 --> 01:19:47,699 other The Gatekeepers don't want out 2004 01:19:51,830 --> 01:19:50,159 there because it diminishes 2005 01:19:55,550 --> 01:19:51,840 the subject or calls them to question 2006 01:19:59,330 --> 01:19:55,560 people's motivation or it highlights 2007 01:20:01,370 --> 01:19:59,340 their racism or their you know belief uh 2008 01:20:03,169 --> 01:20:01,380 systems it's just it was fascinating 2009 01:20:06,290 --> 01:20:03,179 there were some exchanges about Richard 2010 01:20:09,050 --> 01:20:06,300 Hall and the fact that he was you know 2011 01:20:11,750 --> 01:20:09,060 maybe a little bit left of of Center and 2012 01:20:13,669 --> 01:20:11,760 everybody was just so concerned no no he 2013 01:20:15,950 --> 01:20:13,679 wrote a you know this this book and we 2014 01:20:17,990 --> 01:20:15,960 can't have that because he's you know 2015 01:20:20,510 --> 01:20:18,000 associating with ACLU and different 2016 01:20:24,250 --> 01:20:20,520 things and it was just yes no ambastian 2017 01:20:26,890 --> 01:20:24,260 of leftist ideology the ACLU what hey 2018 01:20:30,350 --> 01:20:26,900 yeah but it's I don't know it's it's 2019 01:20:31,850 --> 01:20:30,360 fascinating so I'm I'm super stoked I 2020 01:20:33,350 --> 01:20:31,860 mean you know I think there's like I'm 2021 01:20:35,450 --> 01:20:33,360 watching the comments scroll by on the 2022 01:20:36,830 --> 01:20:35,460 screen I think um I want to jump in and 2023 01:20:38,810 --> 01:20:36,840 just say something which is when I think 2024 01:20:40,610 --> 01:20:38,820 about the study of this subject right 2025 01:20:42,709 --> 01:20:40,620 there's almost like two distinct 2026 01:20:45,169 --> 01:20:42,719 categories there's the study of things 2027 01:20:46,669 --> 01:20:45,179 that are seemed or experienced that 2028 01:20:48,050 --> 01:20:46,679 we're trying to get to the bottom of or 2029 01:20:49,910 --> 01:20:48,060 people are trying to get to the bottom 2030 01:20:52,010 --> 01:20:49,920 of and various institutions public 2031 01:20:55,610 --> 01:20:52,020 private independent but then there's 2032 01:20:58,370 --> 01:20:55,620 this like meta study of what ufology is 2033 01:21:01,189 --> 01:20:58,380 you know and why it's almost like a 2034 01:21:03,950 --> 01:21:01,199 folklore or mythology study where you're 2035 01:21:06,110 --> 01:21:03,960 looking at what drives people to be 2036 01:21:09,590 --> 01:21:06,120 compelled towards this subject what are 2037 01:21:11,630 --> 01:21:09,600 their correspondences like and I I think 2038 01:21:13,010 --> 01:21:11,640 when we have conversations about data in 2039 01:21:14,810 --> 01:21:13,020 this field 2040 01:21:16,729 --> 01:21:14,820 um you can pretty categorically say that 2041 01:21:17,990 --> 01:21:16,739 like the hard quantitative data 2042 01:21:20,450 --> 01:21:18,000 associated with sightings and 2043 01:21:22,669 --> 01:21:20,460 experiences is generally quite poor 2044 01:21:25,490 --> 01:21:22,679 um it wouldn't survive sort of peer 2045 01:21:26,270 --> 01:21:25,500 review new statistical interrogation 2046 01:21:28,610 --> 01:21:26,280 Etc 2047 01:21:30,770 --> 01:21:28,620 but then on the other side just having 2048 01:21:32,410 --> 01:21:30,780 that data from a pure ethnographic 2049 01:21:34,910 --> 01:21:32,420 perspective or a pure kind of 2050 01:21:36,770 --> 01:21:34,920 sociological perspective is super 2051 01:21:38,450 --> 01:21:36,780 fascinating and very interesting to have 2052 01:21:40,370 --> 01:21:38,460 these years of Correspondence or 2053 01:21:41,630 --> 01:21:40,380 magazines because 2054 01:21:44,030 --> 01:21:41,640 um 2055 01:21:45,709 --> 01:21:44,040 regardless of what is actually going on 2056 01:21:48,350 --> 01:21:45,719 quote unquote 2057 01:21:50,330 --> 01:21:48,360 um just the the community itself and the 2058 01:21:52,850 --> 01:21:50,340 behaviors around it are themselves worth 2059 01:21:55,010 --> 01:21:52,860 study and consideration and exploration 2060 01:21:56,390 --> 01:21:55,020 and I think that that's I feel like that 2061 01:21:57,770 --> 01:21:56,400 kind of gets lost in a lot of these 2062 01:21:59,390 --> 01:21:57,780 conversations where people think it's 2063 01:22:01,130 --> 01:21:59,400 only about answering something they saw 2064 01:22:04,189 --> 01:22:01,140 in the sky or talking about experience 2065 01:22:05,810 --> 01:22:04,199 or phenomena when there's to me the most 2066 01:22:07,669 --> 01:22:05,820 fascinating part of it is like the 2067 01:22:10,370 --> 01:22:07,679 people and the the culture and the 2068 01:22:12,649 --> 01:22:10,380 community around it that can be sort of 2069 01:22:14,689 --> 01:22:12,659 studied and explored absolutely I mean 2070 01:22:16,970 --> 01:22:14,699 there's so many facets to this subject 2071 01:22:18,649 --> 01:22:16,980 and and you know like if we each you 2072 01:22:20,630 --> 01:22:18,659 know found ourselves kind of delving 2073 01:22:22,310 --> 01:22:20,640 into one aspect of that you know we 2074 01:22:24,530 --> 01:22:22,320 could make a big change I mean I went 2075 01:22:26,209 --> 01:22:24,540 down I was looking for you know 2076 01:22:29,330 --> 01:22:26,219 anomalous light phenomenon trying to 2077 01:22:31,070 --> 01:22:29,340 study that and then I fell down the the 2078 01:22:32,630 --> 01:22:31,080 rabbit hole of looking into people's 2079 01:22:35,689 --> 01:22:32,640 personal uh 2080 01:22:38,030 --> 01:22:35,699 lives their behavior their viewpoints 2081 01:22:40,370 --> 01:22:38,040 and that to me is is truly fascinating 2082 01:22:43,010 --> 01:22:40,380 and very telling for a lot of things and 2083 01:22:46,370 --> 01:22:43,020 that can weed out a lot of cases that we 2084 01:22:48,410 --> 01:22:46,380 see uh historical cases and and things 2085 01:22:50,990 --> 01:22:48,420 and so it's just it's it's a fascinating 2086 01:22:52,850 --> 01:22:51,000 it's it's a fascinating subject and it's 2087 01:22:55,490 --> 01:22:52,860 an important subject it's a subject that 2088 01:22:58,189 --> 01:22:55,500 is shaped our narrative not just in 2089 01:23:01,669 --> 01:22:58,199 ufology but our world views on a lot of 2090 01:23:03,890 --> 01:23:01,679 things and so I just it's I think it's 2091 01:23:06,169 --> 01:23:03,900 it's it deserves is a subject that 2092 01:23:09,169 --> 01:23:06,179 deserves to be recognized and studied 2093 01:23:11,750 --> 01:23:09,179 from for multiple perspectives 2094 01:23:14,090 --> 01:23:11,760 Erica with your experience having gone 2095 01:23:18,050 --> 01:23:14,100 through so many important historic 2096 01:23:20,209 --> 01:23:18,060 documents on the UFO subject if and this 2097 01:23:22,910 --> 01:23:20,219 is just the hypothetical question so 2098 01:23:26,270 --> 01:23:22,920 maybe there is no full answer but if you 2099 01:23:29,990 --> 01:23:26,280 could give a fully effective truth serum 2100 01:23:32,030 --> 01:23:30,000 to one person on Earth to ask them a 2101 01:23:34,430 --> 01:23:32,040 series of questions to actually find out 2102 01:23:40,330 --> 01:23:34,440 what's actually going on here 2103 01:23:43,490 --> 01:23:42,050 well 2104 01:23:45,770 --> 01:23:43,500 um that's a great question I'm about to 2105 01:23:47,510 --> 01:23:45,780 be attacked by my very large cat so if 2106 01:23:49,910 --> 01:23:47,520 you could either see me topple over in 2107 01:23:52,010 --> 01:23:49,920 my chair or see the computer fall off or 2108 01:23:53,870 --> 01:23:52,020 something but we've got Mufasa's 2109 01:23:56,810 --> 01:23:53,880 rumbling around here we finally woke up 2110 01:23:59,570 --> 01:23:56,820 after feeding most of the day but um 2111 01:24:02,330 --> 01:23:59,580 you know I who would I give truth to him 2112 01:24:05,149 --> 01:24:02,340 to I honestly don't 2113 01:24:06,770 --> 01:24:05,159 well I mean Bigelow would be 2114 01:24:08,990 --> 01:24:06,780 top on my list 2115 01:24:11,330 --> 01:24:09,000 but I mean mostly because I I understand 2116 01:24:12,590 --> 01:24:11,340 I don't believe he's he's ever done this 2117 01:24:13,610 --> 01:24:12,600 from a perspective of wanting to find 2118 01:24:16,850 --> 01:24:13,620 the truth 2119 01:24:19,310 --> 01:24:16,860 um so but I would just be interested in 2120 01:24:21,770 --> 01:24:19,320 in that whole thing but I don't I don't 2121 01:24:23,090 --> 01:24:21,780 believe that there's one person that has 2122 01:24:25,310 --> 01:24:23,100 the answers I don't believe the 2123 01:24:28,250 --> 01:24:25,320 government knows what's going on you 2124 01:24:30,649 --> 01:24:28,260 know I think it's it's been yeah I don't 2125 01:24:33,290 --> 01:24:30,659 nobody is dedicated enough time and 2126 01:24:36,169 --> 01:24:33,300 resources to study this subject properly 2127 01:24:38,570 --> 01:24:36,179 and so and I at least of all the our 2128 01:24:40,610 --> 01:24:38,580 government you know if I so I don't know 2129 01:24:42,590 --> 01:24:40,620 what do you think who would you give the 2130 01:24:46,910 --> 01:24:42,600 truth serum to 2131 01:24:50,410 --> 01:24:46,920 me uh I would give it to the 2132 01:24:53,209 --> 01:24:50,420 director of Technology at the United 2133 01:24:57,530 --> 01:24:53,219 Kingdom's Ministry of Defense because 2134 01:24:59,750 --> 01:24:57,540 that is the intelligence specific it's 2135 01:25:03,470 --> 01:24:59,760 because that's the proven document from 2136 01:25:05,149 --> 01:25:03,480 the Declassified 2006 through Dr David 2137 01:25:06,709 --> 01:25:05,159 Clark's Freedom of Information Act 2138 01:25:09,790 --> 01:25:06,719 request under New Freedom of Information 2139 01:25:12,590 --> 01:25:09,800 laws that report was produced 2140 01:25:14,630 --> 01:25:12,600 1996-2000 top secret report brief to the 2141 01:25:17,510 --> 01:25:14,640 top Ministry of Defense leadership it 2142 01:25:19,729 --> 01:25:17,520 says that UAP indisputably exists it 2143 01:25:21,470 --> 01:25:19,739 defines them as being capable of 2144 01:25:25,189 --> 01:25:21,480 accelerating to exceptional velocity 2145 01:25:26,810 --> 01:25:25,199 velocity is uh hovering taking off of 2146 01:25:29,090 --> 01:25:26,820 various colors all of the things that 2147 01:25:31,970 --> 01:25:29,100 are in traditional uh reports and then 2148 01:25:33,970 --> 01:25:31,980 it says we are certain they exist and we 2149 01:25:36,410 --> 01:25:33,980 are almost certain that they are 2150 01:25:38,570 --> 01:25:36,420 atmospheric plasma phenomena naturally 2151 01:25:39,890 --> 01:25:38,580 produced by a variety of mechanisms and 2152 01:25:41,870 --> 01:25:39,900 we're going to keep that secret because 2153 01:25:43,310 --> 01:25:41,880 we're trying to militarize these 2154 01:25:45,410 --> 01:25:43,320 phenomena we don't know how fully how 2155 01:25:47,270 --> 01:25:45,420 they work and we know the Russians are 2156 01:25:49,130 --> 01:25:47,280 ahead of us on this and we've already be 2157 01:25:51,709 --> 01:25:49,140 briefed all of our top Tech managers on 2158 01:25:53,990 --> 01:25:51,719 this so that's who I would ask because 2159 01:25:55,490 --> 01:25:54,000 they apparently are engaged in a very 2160 01:25:57,890 --> 01:25:55,500 elaborate conspiracy that's on the 2161 01:25:59,030 --> 01:25:57,900 public record that satisfies most of the 2162 01:26:00,890 --> 01:25:59,040 requirements for most people's 2163 01:26:03,709 --> 01:26:00,900 requirements for a conspiracy theory 2164 01:26:05,510 --> 01:26:03,719 involved in the UFO cover-up I have no 2165 01:26:07,430 --> 01:26:05,520 interest in proving conspiracies 2166 01:26:09,890 --> 01:26:07,440 whatsoever it's just physically on the 2167 01:26:13,610 --> 01:26:09,900 paper so that's who I would ask I like 2168 01:26:15,649 --> 01:26:13,620 it I think it inspired me good one I 2169 01:26:17,990 --> 01:26:15,659 agree with you too 2170 01:26:18,890 --> 01:26:18,000 and if if they are wrong I just want to 2171 01:26:20,209 --> 01:26:18,900 hear what they have to say because 2172 01:26:22,310 --> 01:26:20,219 they've been hiding it from their own 2173 01:26:26,030 --> 01:26:22,320 perspective it's true 2174 01:26:30,010 --> 01:26:26,040 okay uh Richard Dodie two shots of truth 2175 01:26:35,390 --> 01:26:33,470 that speaks to just kind of like how is 2176 01:26:37,669 --> 01:26:35,400 bizarre this entire subject is because 2177 01:26:39,350 --> 01:26:37,679 even just the answer to this question at 2178 01:26:41,149 --> 01:26:39,360 all I'm thinking is oh I'd want to give 2179 01:26:43,970 --> 01:26:41,159 it to people so I know how much [\h__\h] 2180 01:26:45,709 --> 01:26:43,980 they're spewing like I want to know what 2181 01:26:47,930 --> 01:26:45,719 are they saying that's not true because 2182 01:26:50,870 --> 01:26:47,940 that to me is more compelling in many 2183 01:26:52,850 --> 01:26:50,880 respects than what actual actual truth 2184 01:26:55,129 --> 01:26:52,860 would be that's hilarious give it to 2185 01:26:56,930 --> 01:26:55,139 some of the top uh UFO podcasters and 2186 01:26:59,930 --> 01:26:56,940 you're just yeah I don't know anything I 2187 01:27:01,970 --> 01:26:59,940 know absolutely nothing yes okay thank 2188 01:27:05,090 --> 01:27:01,980 you 2189 01:27:07,750 --> 01:27:05,100 shocker so so we've been talking about 2190 01:27:10,250 --> 01:27:07,760 UFOs I always want to Veer into like 2191 01:27:11,990 --> 01:27:10,260 experience or phenomena and sort of the 2192 01:27:14,629 --> 01:27:12,000 more mystical or numinous elements of 2193 01:27:16,850 --> 01:27:14,639 this so Erica I'm super curious 2194 01:27:18,530 --> 01:27:16,860 um how do you think about these like the 2195 01:27:20,810 --> 01:27:18,540 constellation of subjects that are 2196 01:27:22,790 --> 01:27:20,820 related to ufology so these would be 2197 01:27:26,570 --> 01:27:22,800 things like remote viewing or astral 2198 01:27:28,129 --> 01:27:26,580 projection or near-death experiences 2199 01:27:29,570 --> 01:27:28,139 um what are your views on this and do 2200 01:27:31,850 --> 01:27:29,580 you have any interest in these subjects 2201 01:27:35,030 --> 01:27:31,860 you know what I do because I love 2202 01:27:38,689 --> 01:27:35,040 exploring unknown the unknown 2203 01:27:39,229 --> 01:27:38,699 um as I've you know and I've I've 2204 01:27:42,410 --> 01:27:39,239 um 2205 01:27:45,590 --> 01:27:42,420 I tried remote viewing I've I've had the 2206 01:27:47,990 --> 01:27:45,600 person that I know over in London uh who 2207 01:27:50,270 --> 01:27:48,000 is a remote viewer who's done some a 2208 01:27:52,610 --> 01:27:50,280 couple things from me that has been 2209 01:27:56,450 --> 01:27:52,620 remarkably accurate 2210 01:28:00,530 --> 01:27:58,370 I mean I 2211 01:28:01,970 --> 01:28:00,540 it's not that I wanted I don't even know 2212 01:28:04,370 --> 01:28:01,980 I think that there are things that are 2213 01:28:06,770 --> 01:28:04,380 deserved that deserve to be to be looked 2214 01:28:07,790 --> 01:28:06,780 at and near-death experiences I mean 2215 01:28:10,129 --> 01:28:07,800 people 2216 01:28:13,129 --> 01:28:10,139 have them I had an out of body 2217 01:28:14,030 --> 01:28:13,139 experience once when I was drowning as a 2218 01:28:16,910 --> 01:28:14,040 child 2219 01:28:18,649 --> 01:28:16,920 and I left my body and could see my 2220 01:28:21,050 --> 01:28:18,659 myself and sorry Mufasa that was like 2221 01:28:24,169 --> 01:28:21,060 the thump that through the world right 2222 01:28:28,129 --> 01:28:25,790 like I've but 2223 01:28:30,470 --> 01:28:28,139 but what was that as a result of was 2224 01:28:32,149 --> 01:28:30,480 that me losing oxygen to my brain you 2225 01:28:34,430 --> 01:28:32,159 know I mean what was taking place 2226 01:28:36,590 --> 01:28:34,440 um there are lots of things like that 2227 01:28:38,390 --> 01:28:36,600 that I think deserve to be studied but 2228 01:28:39,890 --> 01:28:38,400 again it's like I've got there's so many 2229 01:28:43,490 --> 01:28:39,900 things out there it's like I've got to 2230 01:28:45,950 --> 01:28:43,500 pick my my poison but and then I also 2231 01:28:47,209 --> 01:28:45,960 see do I want to just say like with you 2232 01:28:50,270 --> 01:28:47,219 know Leah you mentioned the conference 2233 01:28:52,370 --> 01:28:50,280 that you were at and some of these the 2234 01:28:54,410 --> 01:28:52,380 people that were there who were also 2235 01:28:57,530 --> 01:28:54,420 getting into you know near-death 2236 01:29:00,950 --> 01:28:57,540 experiences and it's the same same cast 2237 01:29:05,090 --> 01:29:00,960 of characters that have been 2238 01:29:08,270 --> 01:29:05,100 you know I think potentially 2239 01:29:10,010 --> 01:29:08,280 grifting on in the subject and in 2240 01:29:12,770 --> 01:29:10,020 multiple subjects for a long time I mean 2241 01:29:14,570 --> 01:29:12,780 Bigelow is a prime example of that oh 2242 01:29:16,370 --> 01:29:14,580 wait we're going to look at UFOs we're 2243 01:29:18,110 --> 01:29:16,380 going to get some funding over here okay 2244 01:29:19,790 --> 01:29:18,120 but we can't find anything just kidding 2245 01:29:21,169 --> 01:29:19,800 so now we're gonna go over here and then 2246 01:29:23,149 --> 01:29:21,179 we're gonna look at near-death 2247 01:29:24,950 --> 01:29:23,159 experiences or we're going to do ABC and 2248 01:29:25,790 --> 01:29:24,960 d and I think you know could that just 2249 01:29:27,770 --> 01:29:25,800 be 2250 01:29:31,430 --> 01:29:27,780 a means 2251 01:29:33,410 --> 01:29:31,440 you know to while I'm right to 2252 01:29:34,629 --> 01:29:33,420 do interesting things with with funding 2253 01:29:37,490 --> 01:29:34,639 yeah 2254 01:29:39,229 --> 01:29:37,500 I mean when I look at Bigelow's 2255 01:29:42,169 --> 01:29:39,239 preoccupation with Consciousness and 2256 01:29:43,970 --> 01:29:42,179 life after death I see two things I see 2257 01:29:46,430 --> 01:29:43,980 an elderly man reaching the end of his 2258 01:29:49,850 --> 01:29:46,440 life who is desperate to understand what 2259 01:29:50,990 --> 01:29:49,860 happens next and how's the means to 2260 01:29:54,229 --> 01:29:51,000 um 2261 01:29:57,290 --> 01:29:54,239 invest in that exploration and I also 2262 01:29:59,390 --> 01:29:57,300 see a man who cannot come to terms with 2263 01:30:02,689 --> 01:29:59,400 the grief of losing his wife and is 2264 01:30:04,430 --> 01:30:02,699 looking for like and maybe this is less 2265 01:30:07,970 --> 01:30:04,440 cynical and more charitable than I 2266 01:30:11,209 --> 01:30:07,980 should be but I can so distinctly recall 2267 01:30:13,490 --> 01:30:11,219 when his wife died that being like felt 2268 01:30:16,250 --> 01:30:13,500 like such a force forcing function for 2269 01:30:17,689 --> 01:30:16,260 his interest in this subject 2270 01:30:20,209 --> 01:30:17,699 um 2271 01:30:23,390 --> 01:30:20,219 and to be clear this is not a defense of 2272 01:30:26,330 --> 01:30:23,400 him in any sense but to me his sort of 2273 01:30:30,410 --> 01:30:26,340 investment particularly in the near 2274 01:30:32,689 --> 01:30:30,420 death and after death experience speaks 2275 01:30:34,550 --> 01:30:32,699 almost to an internal pathology he 2276 01:30:35,930 --> 01:30:34,560 possesses we all just get to see it writ 2277 01:30:37,189 --> 01:30:35,940 large because he actually has the money 2278 01:30:39,290 --> 01:30:37,199 to do this 2279 01:30:41,570 --> 01:30:39,300 and I just see a guy that donated 10 2280 01:30:42,709 --> 01:30:41,580 million to Ron DeSantis yeah no [\h__\h] 2281 01:30:49,010 --> 01:30:42,719 right 2282 01:30:54,410 --> 01:30:50,990 c and d and who's who's gone to Great 2283 01:30:56,629 --> 01:30:54,420 Lengths to create a community like coast 2284 01:30:59,270 --> 01:30:56,639 to coast and different you know people 2285 01:31:02,270 --> 01:30:59,280 that are promoting uh disinformation and 2286 01:31:04,610 --> 01:31:02,280 misinformation and and creating a whole 2287 01:31:07,430 --> 01:31:04,620 narrative to steer people down a q Anon 2288 01:31:11,689 --> 01:31:07,440 path and so yeah to me that's what I see 2289 01:31:14,090 --> 01:31:11,699 when I when I I look at at Bigelow and I 2290 01:31:17,510 --> 01:31:14,100 I don't I don't see anything genuine 2291 01:31:19,850 --> 01:31:17,520 there even I mean it's very sad when you 2292 01:31:22,250 --> 01:31:19,860 you lose a loved one 2293 01:31:23,930 --> 01:31:22,260 um but he's been involved in this and 2294 01:31:25,790 --> 01:31:23,940 and 2295 01:31:29,209 --> 01:31:25,800 some shady way or another for a long 2296 01:31:30,709 --> 01:31:29,219 long time and I don't to me I used to 2297 01:31:32,090 --> 01:31:30,719 think that this was genuine and I 2298 01:31:34,310 --> 01:31:32,100 remember seeing the interview he did on 2299 01:31:36,709 --> 01:31:34,320 60 Minutes with Laura Logan and it's 2300 01:31:38,990 --> 01:31:36,719 like they're right under our noses and 2301 01:31:42,169 --> 01:31:39,000 yada yada you know just this stuff and 2302 01:31:43,729 --> 01:31:42,179 it's like dude no no I mean seriously 2303 01:31:46,550 --> 01:31:43,739 you've got nothing 2304 01:31:49,070 --> 01:31:46,560 all this money all this this effort that 2305 01:31:51,649 --> 01:31:49,080 you've put into this subject for so long 2306 01:31:53,030 --> 01:31:51,659 you've got nothing you've put out 2307 01:31:55,270 --> 01:31:53,040 nothing 2308 01:31:58,610 --> 01:31:55,280 except you've you've steered a narrative 2309 01:32:01,970 --> 01:31:58,620 and and fooled a lot of people and I 2310 01:32:05,629 --> 01:32:01,980 think that's really unfortunate so 2311 01:32:07,189 --> 01:32:05,639 that's me I'm jaded cynical and I know 2312 01:32:10,430 --> 01:32:07,199 because I've talked to a lot of people 2313 01:32:12,050 --> 01:32:10,440 that worked with him and um that have 2314 01:32:13,430 --> 01:32:12,060 you know I've done my own research and 2315 01:32:16,189 --> 01:32:13,440 I've got with this wonderful archive 2316 01:32:19,189 --> 01:32:16,199 here I've got certain studies that he's 2317 01:32:21,350 --> 01:32:19,199 funded and things that you know I find 2318 01:32:25,129 --> 01:32:21,360 quite interesting and again I think a 2319 01:32:28,070 --> 01:32:25,139 way to pull in data and and learn how to 2320 01:32:31,790 --> 01:32:28,080 manipulate people and and their thinking 2321 01:32:34,550 --> 01:32:31,800 so that's what I see mm-hmm 2322 01:32:36,470 --> 01:32:34,560 he loves me 2323 01:32:38,750 --> 01:32:36,480 well that's a good point because a lot 2324 01:32:40,610 --> 01:32:38,760 of people in that orbit as well there 2325 01:32:42,830 --> 01:32:40,620 are once again you don't need to appeal 2326 01:32:44,629 --> 01:32:42,840 to conspiracy theories uh there are 2327 01:32:47,990 --> 01:32:44,639 conspiracies that are publicly available 2328 01:32:51,950 --> 01:32:48,000 in academic sources for example 2329 01:32:54,830 --> 01:32:51,960 Dr Eric Davis uh John Greenwald Jr in 2330 01:32:57,950 --> 01:32:54,840 2019 foyed a U.S Air Force research 2331 01:33:00,709 --> 01:32:57,960 paper commissioned by Dr Davis a secret 2332 01:33:03,290 --> 01:33:00,719 paper and in it he wrote extensively 2333 01:33:05,689 --> 01:33:03,300 it's called ball lightning study and in 2334 01:33:08,090 --> 01:33:05,699 that paper he explains to the U.S Air 2335 01:33:10,490 --> 01:33:08,100 Force research lab that ball lightning 2336 01:33:12,370 --> 01:33:10,500 can be attributed to the cause of UFO 2337 01:33:14,930 --> 01:33:12,380 victims in history through the 2338 01:33:17,149 --> 01:33:14,940 mechanisms that they you know produce 2339 01:33:18,709 --> 01:33:17,159 through their functioning he describes 2340 01:33:20,810 --> 01:33:18,719 them as having all of the features of 2341 01:33:23,330 --> 01:33:20,820 UFOs as they're described in modern 2342 01:33:25,550 --> 01:33:23,340 cases he never references ball lightning 2343 01:33:29,270 --> 01:33:25,560 when asked about UFOs however this paper 2344 01:33:30,410 --> 01:33:29,280 is in the formal record and you know so 2345 01:33:32,330 --> 01:33:30,420 that's the kind of thing where you can 2346 01:33:34,189 --> 01:33:32,340 look at that and Nick that's on paper 2347 01:33:36,649 --> 01:33:34,199 and this guy's going out there doing 2348 01:33:38,750 --> 01:33:36,659 this stuff so it makes me wonder I don't 2349 01:33:40,189 --> 01:33:38,760 know how much I mean you know I trust 2350 01:33:41,930 --> 01:33:40,199 your judgment on Bigelow but when 2351 01:33:44,930 --> 01:33:41,940 there's something that explicit you can 2352 01:33:49,430 --> 01:33:44,940 really uh see the smoke uh The Smoking 2353 01:33:54,229 --> 01:33:49,440 Gun and maybe we can pivot briefly into 2354 01:33:56,290 --> 01:33:54,239 other what other subjects in your life 2355 01:33:59,629 --> 01:33:56,300 still 2356 01:34:01,490 --> 01:33:59,639 evoke this sort of the eager inspiration 2357 01:34:03,470 --> 01:34:01,500 level that you 2358 01:34:05,810 --> 01:34:03,480 had when you first got into this subject 2359 01:34:07,430 --> 01:34:05,820 I'm just curious like for me there are 2360 01:34:09,709 --> 01:34:07,440 other things in my life that I find 2361 01:34:10,970 --> 01:34:09,719 equally or even more interesting and I 2362 01:34:12,530 --> 01:34:10,980 don't touch on it but for you I'm just 2363 01:34:14,270 --> 01:34:12,540 curious uh if there's something like 2364 01:34:17,090 --> 01:34:14,280 that for you that inspires you outside 2365 01:34:19,070 --> 01:34:17,100 of this subject Lord I hope so otherwise 2366 01:34:21,290 --> 01:34:19,080 I'd be hiding in my closet with a 2367 01:34:23,990 --> 01:34:21,300 picture of margaritas no I think 2368 01:34:26,090 --> 01:34:24,000 um you know like for me I am a business 2369 01:34:29,870 --> 01:34:26,100 owner I teach Pilates I've had a pilates 2370 01:34:32,149 --> 01:34:29,880 studio for 20 plus years I love helping 2371 01:34:35,689 --> 01:34:32,159 other people that have 2372 01:34:37,970 --> 01:34:35,699 um health issues and and earn chronic 2373 01:34:41,090 --> 01:34:37,980 pain I mean that's just been a love of 2374 01:34:43,250 --> 01:34:41,100 mine I'm a professional musician and I 2375 01:34:45,890 --> 01:34:43,260 started singing classically studying 2376 01:34:49,310 --> 01:34:45,900 classical music vocals at the age of 16 2377 01:34:51,050 --> 01:34:49,320 at the University of Utah and sang in in 2378 01:34:54,350 --> 01:34:51,060 a lot of different bands over the years 2379 01:34:59,990 --> 01:34:54,360 and saying it the 2002 Olympics twice 2380 01:35:03,350 --> 01:35:00,000 um so I am I play the drums I um play 2381 01:35:08,030 --> 01:35:03,360 percussion I just I love uh I love music 2382 01:35:09,770 --> 01:35:08,040 and and so that inspires me I also you 2383 01:35:13,189 --> 01:35:09,780 know I when I have some free time I 2384 01:35:16,669 --> 01:35:13,199 write music and record it and so when I 2385 01:35:19,070 --> 01:35:16,679 start this new it's uh the new show I'll 2386 01:35:20,930 --> 01:35:19,080 be interviewing people that are my 2387 01:35:23,270 --> 01:35:20,940 friends and musicians who've worked with 2388 01:35:25,010 --> 01:35:23,280 people like BB King and have worked with 2389 01:35:27,649 --> 01:35:25,020 some of you know Etta James and some of 2390 01:35:30,709 --> 01:35:27,659 the great musicians in the world because 2391 01:35:33,410 --> 01:35:30,719 they they inspire me I think music is a 2392 01:35:35,870 --> 01:35:33,420 universal language it is found me 2393 01:35:38,570 --> 01:35:35,880 fascinating and I also 2394 01:35:41,570 --> 01:35:38,580 um you know it makes me happy it's it's 2395 01:35:43,550 --> 01:35:41,580 I think makes all of us happy and you 2396 01:35:45,830 --> 01:35:43,560 know I also am very concerned about it 2397 01:35:47,629 --> 01:35:45,840 the environmental uh things that are 2398 01:35:49,490 --> 01:35:47,639 taking place with regard to the Great 2399 01:35:50,870 --> 01:35:49,500 Salt Lake there was an article that came 2400 01:35:55,430 --> 01:35:50,880 out the day there had been many articles 2401 01:35:57,649 --> 01:35:55,440 but one specifically in uh my gosh 2402 01:36:00,770 --> 01:35:57,659 trying to remember NBC I believe about 2403 01:36:03,350 --> 01:36:00,780 the Great Salt Lake and how one of the I 2404 01:36:05,870 --> 01:36:03,360 mean this this large uh lake is 2405 01:36:08,030 --> 01:36:05,880 disappearing and there are pollutants 2406 01:36:10,189 --> 01:36:08,040 that have been piped into the lake for 2407 01:36:13,129 --> 01:36:10,199 decades from Kennecott copper and it's 2408 01:36:16,850 --> 01:36:13,139 blowing up toxic dust full of Arsenic 2409 01:36:18,830 --> 01:36:16,860 and it could do it it is doing a lot of 2410 01:36:21,530 --> 01:36:18,840 damage to People's Health to the 2411 01:36:23,629 --> 01:36:21,540 environment and so that those are areas 2412 01:36:26,209 --> 01:36:23,639 that I want to focus on and and digging 2413 01:36:28,850 --> 01:36:26,219 into the politicians that have been 2414 01:36:31,430 --> 01:36:28,860 taking money from you know these 2415 01:36:33,350 --> 01:36:31,440 corporations to turn a blind eye and 2416 01:36:35,510 --> 01:36:33,360 that have not done what they need to do 2417 01:36:38,930 --> 01:36:35,520 and I I you know this kind of goes back 2418 01:36:42,050 --> 01:36:38,940 to what has taken place with uh the 2419 01:36:43,850 --> 01:36:42,060 skinwalker crew Brandon fugle is on the 2420 01:36:46,310 --> 01:36:43,860 the governor's economic Advisory Board 2421 01:36:48,169 --> 01:36:46,320 and has been for quite some time and so 2422 01:36:50,030 --> 01:36:48,179 you see that there were especially 2423 01:36:52,490 --> 01:36:50,040 during the covid relief that there were 2424 01:36:55,250 --> 01:36:52,500 there were funds that were given to 2425 01:36:57,229 --> 01:36:55,260 specific areas that went into a handful 2426 01:36:59,450 --> 01:36:57,239 of people's pockets when there were 2427 01:37:01,189 --> 01:36:59,460 business owners that went belly up 2428 01:37:02,750 --> 01:37:01,199 because they couldn't get the adequate 2429 01:37:06,169 --> 01:37:02,760 funding so there was a lot of 2430 01:37:08,870 --> 01:37:06,179 misappropriation of public funds and it 2431 01:37:11,390 --> 01:37:08,880 goes back to you know it ties to certain 2432 01:37:13,430 --> 01:37:11,400 you know I mean it could could tie 2433 01:37:16,129 --> 01:37:13,440 allegedly maybe to certain people and I 2434 01:37:18,530 --> 01:37:16,139 want to get in there along with Jack and 2435 01:37:20,090 --> 01:37:18,540 do the grammar requests do the foia 2436 01:37:23,090 --> 01:37:20,100 requests which we've been doing that 2437 01:37:26,149 --> 01:37:23,100 paint a specific picture of people and 2438 01:37:29,629 --> 01:37:26,159 and so that that fascinates me and it 2439 01:37:32,030 --> 01:37:29,639 should concern all of us and I I believe 2440 01:37:35,270 --> 01:37:32,040 that we should you know it was being 2441 01:37:37,430 --> 01:37:35,280 concerned citizens that we should take a 2442 01:37:38,689 --> 01:37:37,440 little we should get out there and do 2443 01:37:42,649 --> 01:37:38,699 what we need to do 2444 01:37:44,750 --> 01:37:42,659 for Community for the environment and to 2445 01:37:47,149 --> 01:37:44,760 empower each other and to to move 2446 01:37:48,530 --> 01:37:47,159 forward in a unified manner because 2447 01:37:50,810 --> 01:37:48,540 that's certainly not what we're seeing 2448 01:37:53,209 --> 01:37:50,820 politically or you know I mean here 2449 01:37:55,689 --> 01:37:53,219 Germany all over the world we need to 2450 01:37:57,890 --> 01:37:55,699 unify and find common uh commonalities 2451 01:38:00,649 --> 01:37:57,900 and and things that we're passionate 2452 01:38:03,110 --> 01:38:00,659 about and protect and preserve our our 2453 01:38:05,990 --> 01:38:03,120 surroundings and and also the one more 2454 01:38:07,970 --> 01:38:06,000 thing and then also you know for me and 2455 01:38:10,669 --> 01:38:07,980 Jack we wanted to really talk about 2456 01:38:13,189 --> 01:38:10,679 misinformation and disinformation and 2457 01:38:15,470 --> 01:38:13,199 teach people how to identify what is 2458 01:38:17,330 --> 01:38:15,480 what are each of those things and how do 2459 01:38:18,890 --> 01:38:17,340 we look for that especially now that 2460 01:38:21,890 --> 01:38:18,900 we're being bombarded with all these 2461 01:38:24,470 --> 01:38:21,900 less than credible news sources or you 2462 01:38:27,590 --> 01:38:24,480 know YouTube shows and and things how do 2463 01:38:30,649 --> 01:38:27,600 we make the distinction and how do we 2464 01:38:31,550 --> 01:38:30,659 move forward and and find something that 2465 01:38:33,770 --> 01:38:31,560 we can 2466 01:38:35,629 --> 01:38:33,780 see is reliable information so that 2467 01:38:37,970 --> 01:38:35,639 would get another long-winded answer but 2468 01:38:40,209 --> 01:38:37,980 that's what I'm passionate about so all 2469 01:38:43,189 --> 01:38:40,219 of these things the environment music 2470 01:38:45,169 --> 01:38:43,199 historical preservation talking to 2471 01:38:47,209 --> 01:38:45,179 people just hearing their stories I 2472 01:38:50,330 --> 01:38:47,219 think is is fascinating I love it 2473 01:38:53,770 --> 01:38:50,340 there's so many cool things in life 2474 01:38:56,870 --> 01:38:53,780 music and the environment are frequently 2475 01:38:59,870 --> 01:38:56,880 associated with the UFO subject and we 2476 01:39:02,689 --> 01:38:59,880 see this over and over again in history 2477 01:39:04,970 --> 01:39:02,699 as as well as my own experience as you 2478 01:39:08,030 --> 01:39:04,980 can see you've got my guitars and my 2479 01:39:09,229 --> 01:39:08,040 piano and I'm also a farmer so I and I 2480 01:39:11,510 --> 01:39:09,239 manage a 2481 01:39:15,770 --> 01:39:11,520 substantial portion of uh protective 2482 01:39:18,229 --> 01:39:15,780 Wetland so why do you think the music 2483 01:39:21,050 --> 01:39:18,239 and the environment have had this very 2484 01:39:24,229 --> 01:39:21,060 close relationship to the UFO culture 2485 01:39:26,870 --> 01:39:24,239 and even the study of UFOs in general 2486 01:39:29,090 --> 01:39:26,880 you know what I honestly I I don't know 2487 01:39:30,890 --> 01:39:29,100 I that's a great that's a wonderful 2488 01:39:33,290 --> 01:39:30,900 question and perhaps I will explore that 2489 01:39:35,689 --> 01:39:33,300 in the new series but I do know that 2490 01:39:37,729 --> 01:39:35,699 what I have you know over the years I've 2491 01:39:41,390 --> 01:39:37,739 I've always been a very social creature 2492 01:39:43,610 --> 01:39:41,400 and so I've had many soires you know 2493 01:39:46,189 --> 01:39:43,620 with musicians with people in the UFO 2494 01:39:49,729 --> 01:39:46,199 world and I've made it a point of mine 2495 01:39:51,950 --> 01:39:49,739 over the years to get people into like a 2496 01:39:53,810 --> 01:39:51,960 separate room at my parties you know 2497 01:39:56,149 --> 01:39:53,820 musicians like some of these great you 2498 01:39:57,649 --> 01:39:56,159 know thinkers and and and said okay what 2499 01:39:59,930 --> 01:39:57,659 do you think about UFOs and I've got 2500 01:40:02,570 --> 01:39:59,940 interview after interview of just these 2501 01:40:04,189 --> 01:40:02,580 candid moments of asking people their 2502 01:40:06,229 --> 01:40:04,199 their thoughts about that and so maybe 2503 01:40:09,110 --> 01:40:06,239 what I need to do now is just get those 2504 01:40:11,629 --> 01:40:09,120 interviews off and then put them out 2505 01:40:12,950 --> 01:40:11,639 there for people to see so I just you 2506 01:40:15,649 --> 01:40:12,960 know I don't know I don't know I don't 2507 01:40:17,930 --> 01:40:15,659 know what the relation is but we all 2508 01:40:19,610 --> 01:40:17,940 music touches all of our Lives I don't 2509 01:40:23,570 --> 01:40:19,620 think there is a person on the planet 2510 01:40:25,729 --> 01:40:23,580 that has not been affected by music in 2511 01:40:27,410 --> 01:40:25,739 some form or another other so it would 2512 01:40:31,189 --> 01:40:27,420 just seem natural that anybody that got 2513 01:40:38,390 --> 01:40:31,199 involved with the study of UFOs would 2514 01:40:38,400 --> 01:40:42,610 that stupefied y'all 2515 01:40:42,620 --> 01:40:49,870 Erica for me um write a song about UFOs 2516 01:40:55,910 --> 01:40:52,390 or or composed music 2517 01:40:58,910 --> 01:40:55,920 something that happens epic poem 2518 01:41:01,610 --> 01:40:58,920 you know what I yep I I've got I've got 2519 01:41:03,830 --> 01:41:01,620 several things in the works and 2520 01:41:06,050 --> 01:41:03,840 several songs I've I've written actually 2521 01:41:08,390 --> 01:41:06,060 about that perhaps someday they will be 2522 01:41:09,729 --> 01:41:08,400 publicly available 2523 01:41:12,649 --> 01:41:09,739 um 2524 01:41:15,649 --> 01:41:12,659 if you've got them you should show them 2525 01:41:18,290 --> 01:41:15,659 I agreed yeah in public for the people 2526 01:41:21,169 --> 01:41:18,300 what need to be archived call me out on 2527 01:41:27,770 --> 01:41:22,850 except I'm not doing anything nefarious 2528 01:41:32,930 --> 01:41:30,169 and maybe uh just uh this is a bit more 2529 01:41:37,129 --> 01:41:32,940 broad but uh I'm curious if you could 2530 01:41:38,510 --> 01:41:37,139 since we're a startup podcast type I 2531 01:41:42,470 --> 01:41:38,520 guess we aren't podcast technically yet 2532 01:41:44,750 --> 01:41:42,480 we're just a YouTube show but uh is 2533 01:41:46,850 --> 01:41:44,760 there anything that comes to mind in 2534 01:41:49,609 --> 01:41:46,860 terms of just giving us some advice on 2535 01:41:52,010 --> 01:41:49,619 how to how to reach people uh with this 2536 01:41:54,649 --> 01:41:52,020 information when there is also so much 2537 01:41:58,490 --> 01:41:54,659 pushback as you've experienced to try to 2538 01:42:00,229 --> 01:41:58,500 stop people from learning uh the counter 2539 01:42:02,030 --> 01:42:00,239 points to what's being propagated in the 2540 01:42:05,209 --> 01:42:02,040 community you know what I think it's 2541 01:42:08,810 --> 01:42:05,219 just as Leah mentioned it's the strength 2542 01:42:11,209 --> 01:42:08,820 in numbers it's that that unified force 2543 01:42:13,070 --> 01:42:11,219 that needs to to take place and and if 2544 01:42:15,470 --> 01:42:13,080 you guys are coming forward and putting 2545 01:42:17,570 --> 01:42:15,480 out good information then I need to to 2546 01:42:19,609 --> 01:42:17,580 get to step up and make sure that I'm 2547 01:42:22,790 --> 01:42:19,619 promoting you and vice versa and I think 2548 01:42:24,530 --> 01:42:22,800 that that's going to be a very powerful 2549 01:42:28,129 --> 01:42:24,540 um thing when you've got people who are 2550 01:42:31,310 --> 01:42:28,139 paid uh to to create social media 2551 01:42:32,450 --> 01:42:31,320 campaigns and to produce podcasts that 2552 01:42:34,370 --> 01:42:32,460 are you know promoting a certain 2553 01:42:36,350 --> 01:42:34,380 narrative it's definitely a difficult 2554 01:42:38,330 --> 01:42:36,360 thing to go up against but I think that 2555 01:42:40,189 --> 01:42:38,340 you you are all doing that and I've 2556 01:42:41,689 --> 01:42:40,199 watched all of you and I've been so 2557 01:42:44,149 --> 01:42:41,699 impressed with everything that you're 2558 01:42:47,330 --> 01:42:44,159 putting forward and so and we are 2559 01:42:49,370 --> 01:42:47,340 creating momentum all of us are and I 2560 01:42:51,350 --> 01:42:49,380 think that's a really really cool thing 2561 01:42:53,510 --> 01:42:51,360 and it's been refreshing to me to know 2562 01:42:55,609 --> 01:42:53,520 that you guys are out there doing this 2563 01:42:57,770 --> 01:42:55,619 so anyway I can help support you I Know 2564 01:43:00,530 --> 01:42:57,780 Jack feels the same way he has a lot of 2565 01:43:04,550 --> 01:43:00,540 respect for you and and as do other 2566 01:43:06,890 --> 01:43:04,560 people that I see here in in chat so I 2567 01:43:09,410 --> 01:43:06,900 think the advice is just to keep keep 2568 01:43:11,030 --> 01:43:09,420 doing what you're doing and involve the 2569 01:43:13,129 --> 01:43:11,040 the caliber of people that you're 2570 01:43:16,970 --> 01:43:13,139 involving because that's that's very 2571 01:43:19,430 --> 01:43:16,980 profound yeah thanks Erica when um when 2572 01:43:22,609 --> 01:43:19,440 you think about the community and some 2573 01:43:24,530 --> 01:43:22,619 of the culture carriers or figures in it 2574 01:43:27,410 --> 01:43:24,540 um in your opinion who should people be 2575 01:43:32,390 --> 01:43:29,450 I you know for me I think people should 2576 01:43:33,470 --> 01:43:32,400 be paying attention to people like Barry 2577 01:43:36,410 --> 01:43:33,480 Greenwood 2578 01:43:38,629 --> 01:43:36,420 um Jen Aldrich they've been wonderful at 2579 01:43:40,609 --> 01:43:38,639 preserving history I think that people 2580 01:43:41,990 --> 01:43:40,619 need to definitely absolutely pay 2581 01:43:44,270 --> 01:43:42,000 attention to Jack Brewer I'm not just 2582 01:43:45,950 --> 01:43:44,280 saying that because I I work uh on 2583 01:43:48,770 --> 01:43:45,960 expanding Frontiers with him but he's 2584 01:43:50,450 --> 01:43:48,780 done very critical uh and and grounded 2585 01:43:52,910 --> 01:43:50,460 research over the years and dug deep 2586 01:43:55,310 --> 01:43:52,920 into a lot of things I think people need 2587 01:43:56,990 --> 01:43:55,320 to pay attention to James carrion who 2588 01:43:59,450 --> 01:43:57,000 was the former executive director of 2589 01:44:03,250 --> 01:43:59,460 mufon he's written a great deal on the 2590 01:44:05,570 --> 01:44:03,260 topic and and I find him uh quite 2591 01:44:08,810 --> 01:44:05,580 intriguing and 2592 01:44:11,209 --> 01:44:08,820 um I like his his thought process 2593 01:44:15,729 --> 01:44:11,219 um oh my gosh who else would I 2594 01:44:17,930 --> 01:44:15,739 say not Richard Dolan um 2595 01:44:19,430 --> 01:44:17,940 well all of you guys I mean I don't know 2596 01:44:21,770 --> 01:44:19,440 who like who are some of the people that 2597 01:44:24,950 --> 01:44:21,780 inspire you 2598 01:44:26,750 --> 01:44:24,960 I mean my my response to that is that 2599 01:44:28,250 --> 01:44:26,760 the invisible night school exists 2600 01:44:29,870 --> 01:44:28,260 because I was so disappointed in the 2601 01:44:32,870 --> 01:44:29,880 caliber of conversation that I was 2602 01:44:36,169 --> 01:44:32,880 hearing that I saw it as my my personal 2603 01:44:38,870 --> 01:44:36,179 Crusade during a work sabbatical to try 2604 01:44:42,530 --> 01:44:38,880 and elevate a conversation a bit 2605 01:44:45,350 --> 01:44:42,540 um so uh then I Came Upon Your show and 2606 01:44:49,490 --> 01:44:45,360 read Jack's book 2607 01:44:52,609 --> 01:44:49,500 um and pretty quickly I think assembled 2608 01:44:54,770 --> 01:44:52,619 something of a personal Brain Trust on 2609 01:44:55,850 --> 01:44:54,780 the subject like people who even if I 2610 01:44:57,770 --> 01:44:55,860 didn't know anything I felt comfortable 2611 01:44:59,510 --> 01:44:57,780 kind of deferring to their expertise and 2612 01:45:01,550 --> 01:44:59,520 where to find information and who I 2613 01:45:04,010 --> 01:45:01,560 should talk to 2614 01:45:05,330 --> 01:45:04,020 you know I wanted to say and I'm sorry I 2615 01:45:07,250 --> 01:45:05,340 didn't mention this but obviously Dr 2616 01:45:11,090 --> 01:45:07,260 teodorani 2617 01:45:13,850 --> 01:45:11,100 um erling Strand and uh Ted Rowe 2618 01:45:16,070 --> 01:45:13,860 um I think that those are people I love 2619 01:45:17,750 --> 01:45:16,080 um I think they're important researchers 2620 01:45:20,030 --> 01:45:17,760 to pay attention to because I've 2621 01:45:22,129 --> 01:45:20,040 actually studied the phenomena and 2622 01:45:24,169 --> 01:45:22,139 they're and I don't know I think they're 2623 01:45:26,209 --> 01:45:24,179 great but those are my people 2624 01:45:27,890 --> 01:45:26,219 those are the people I would go to and 2625 01:45:30,649 --> 01:45:27,900 I'll just I'll just brief really uh 2626 01:45:32,990 --> 01:45:30,659 reiterate here that uh Erica was it was 2627 01:45:35,870 --> 01:45:33,000 your show that was the first show that I 2628 01:45:39,169 --> 01:45:35,880 came into contact with in reference to 2629 01:45:42,410 --> 01:45:39,179 the UFO subject that made any reference 2630 01:45:46,729 --> 01:45:42,420 at all to doing actual science on the 2631 01:45:48,649 --> 01:45:46,739 ground and so that was a Monumental 2632 01:45:50,629 --> 01:45:48,659 moment for me to see oh there actually 2633 01:45:52,490 --> 01:45:50,639 are serious people doing thank you work 2634 01:45:54,830 --> 01:45:52,500 on this subject so yeah and you inspired 2635 01:45:56,330 --> 01:45:54,840 me to think that we can maybe move the 2636 01:45:59,090 --> 01:45:56,340 conversation forward through in 2637 01:46:01,010 --> 01:45:59,100 interviewing people who don't have those 2638 01:46:03,169 --> 01:46:01,020 uh access points that some of these 2639 01:46:05,870 --> 01:46:03,179 people who say more popular things like 2640 01:46:07,310 --> 01:46:05,880 well I won't name names but yes they 2641 01:46:09,169 --> 01:46:07,320 um so yeah thank you for doing that yeah 2642 01:46:11,149 --> 01:46:09,179 and thank you that really means a lot to 2643 01:46:12,229 --> 01:46:11,159 me because sometimes you feel like you 2644 01:46:15,350 --> 01:46:12,239 know like I mentioned that you're kind 2645 01:46:17,570 --> 01:46:15,360 of out there dangling in the wind and so 2646 01:46:20,390 --> 01:46:17,580 it's nice to know that you know you've 2647 01:46:22,850 --> 01:46:20,400 put time and effort and and love into 2648 01:46:24,709 --> 01:46:22,860 something that somebody else is paying 2649 01:46:27,109 --> 01:46:24,719 attention to and that they can and 2650 01:46:29,510 --> 01:46:27,119 hopefully you know kind of piggyback on 2651 01:46:31,370 --> 01:46:29,520 on things and we can all of us move this 2652 01:46:34,850 --> 01:46:31,380 this forward so thank you that means a 2653 01:46:38,149 --> 01:46:37,010 just uh maybe just one more follow-up 2654 01:46:40,189 --> 01:46:38,159 question well it's not follow-up 2655 01:46:42,649 --> 01:46:40,199 actually it's entirely separate but uh 2656 01:46:47,209 --> 01:46:42,659 we mentioned briefly uh somebody 2657 01:46:48,830 --> 01:46:47,219 mentioned the UAP report and I was 2658 01:46:50,270 --> 01:46:48,840 curious if you maybe just had any 2659 01:46:52,729 --> 01:46:50,280 thoughts about 2660 01:46:55,070 --> 01:46:52,739 the delay in this most recent report 2661 01:46:56,930 --> 01:46:55,080 have you had any consideration of that 2662 01:46:58,609 --> 01:46:56,940 what do you think's going on there just 2663 01:47:00,410 --> 01:46:58,619 because it's been such a topic of 2664 01:47:03,050 --> 01:47:00,420 consideration in the community I'm 2665 01:47:05,030 --> 01:47:03,060 curious you know what I it has been and 2666 01:47:06,709 --> 01:47:05,040 I know that there have been some you 2667 01:47:08,030 --> 01:47:06,719 know I mean discussions about that I 2668 01:47:10,930 --> 01:47:08,040 think that there's so much going on 2669 01:47:14,510 --> 01:47:10,940 right now in our country and politically 2670 01:47:16,850 --> 01:47:14,520 and uh have you noticed well you know 2671 01:47:18,770 --> 01:47:16,860 I'm pretty quick that way but I think 2672 01:47:21,770 --> 01:47:18,780 that there might be some other things 2673 01:47:24,830 --> 01:47:21,780 that are taking precedence to that 2674 01:47:27,649 --> 01:47:24,840 um and I I think it will be interesting 2675 01:47:29,209 --> 01:47:27,659 to see as as as things unfold and people 2676 01:47:29,990 --> 01:47:29,219 are being charged 2677 01:47:31,790 --> 01:47:30,000 um 2678 01:47:34,790 --> 01:47:31,800 with things that'll be interesting to 2679 01:47:37,370 --> 01:47:34,800 see what rolls out with people that have 2680 01:47:39,109 --> 01:47:37,380 been associated with Alex Jones and some 2681 01:47:41,570 --> 01:47:39,119 of the other people in the UFO 2682 01:47:43,609 --> 01:47:41,580 that kind of come into that Circle so I 2683 01:47:45,890 --> 01:47:43,619 think there's a lot going on in in right 2684 01:47:47,629 --> 01:47:45,900 now and I'm not sure if it's that would 2685 01:47:49,790 --> 01:47:47,639 be the best time to release it I don't 2686 01:47:52,250 --> 01:47:49,800 know I wish I knew what was going on in 2687 01:47:55,609 --> 01:47:52,260 their mind but again if they release it 2688 01:47:57,649 --> 01:47:55,619 as what how substantial will it be 2689 01:47:59,030 --> 01:47:57,659 there's um 2690 01:48:01,189 --> 01:47:59,040 I think 2691 01:48:02,689 --> 01:48:01,199 like evening dinner time conversation 2692 01:48:05,090 --> 01:48:02,699 when I talk to my parents is I'll 2693 01:48:06,649 --> 01:48:05,100 occasionally try to reality check myself 2694 01:48:08,330 --> 01:48:06,659 and say have you do you guys know who 2695 01:48:10,189 --> 01:48:08,340 Lou Elizondo is like do you know who 2696 01:48:12,310 --> 01:48:10,199 that's like Kane is because I think 2697 01:48:15,410 --> 01:48:12,320 there's also this 2698 01:48:17,149 --> 01:48:15,420 predilection in this community to assume 2699 01:48:19,189 --> 01:48:17,159 that because we are all uniformly 2700 01:48:21,830 --> 01:48:19,199 consumed with this weird subject that 2701 01:48:23,689 --> 01:48:21,840 everybody else is too but the reality of 2702 01:48:26,209 --> 01:48:23,699 the situation is that by and large this 2703 01:48:28,310 --> 01:48:26,219 is not like a subject that the average 2704 01:48:30,530 --> 01:48:28,320 person cares even a tiny bit about 2705 01:48:32,870 --> 01:48:30,540 particularly through the lens of like 2706 01:48:33,770 --> 01:48:32,880 government involvement 2707 01:48:35,330 --> 01:48:33,780 um 2708 01:48:36,709 --> 01:48:35,340 you know and I like I watch all these 2709 01:48:38,870 --> 01:48:36,719 people on Twitter get upset about this 2710 01:48:40,550 --> 01:48:38,880 report and like I get it like everybody 2711 01:48:42,229 --> 01:48:40,560 wants to see the report but on the other 2712 01:48:44,090 --> 01:48:42,239 hand the idea that this is front and 2713 01:48:47,270 --> 01:48:44,100 center on anyone's mind except for this 2714 01:48:49,550 --> 01:48:47,280 like tiny sliver of the population 2715 01:48:51,770 --> 01:48:49,560 um seems completely ludicrous 2716 01:48:54,290 --> 01:48:51,780 it's funny you mentioned that um my 2717 01:48:56,149 --> 01:48:54,300 father-in-law just a week or two ago uh 2718 01:48:57,649 --> 01:48:56,159 casually in conversation mentioned oh 2719 01:49:00,350 --> 01:48:57,659 yeah the government admits they're real 2720 01:49:03,530 --> 01:49:00,360 now was was the quote from him so I mean 2721 01:49:06,109 --> 01:49:03,540 they are uh kind of absorbing a passing 2722 01:49:08,870 --> 01:49:06,119 glance at this yeah kind of based on the 2723 01:49:12,830 --> 01:49:08,880 2017 stuff that came out of the New York 2724 01:49:14,689 --> 01:49:12,840 Times so it's it's vaguely out there but 2725 01:49:16,669 --> 01:49:14,699 it also just kind of flows with that 2726 01:49:20,510 --> 01:49:16,679 overall mythology that's always existed 2727 01:49:23,330 --> 01:49:20,520 with UFOs the kind of folklore it's it's 2728 01:49:26,510 --> 01:49:23,340 just continuing that way but yeah you're 2729 01:49:28,669 --> 01:49:26,520 rightly uh people outside of this weird 2730 01:49:30,590 --> 01:49:28,679 little Community are not 2731 01:49:32,149 --> 01:49:30,600 um really looking at the bit for this 2732 01:49:34,490 --> 01:49:32,159 report to come out that like you said 2733 01:49:37,310 --> 01:49:34,500 they're they're a good amount of things 2734 01:49:39,290 --> 01:49:37,320 that are going on that do take more 2735 01:49:42,169 --> 01:49:39,300 precedence than this 2736 01:49:44,390 --> 01:49:42,179 and I think it's it's sad that if people 2737 01:49:46,250 --> 01:49:44,400 outside of our little bubble of ufology 2738 01:49:49,430 --> 01:49:46,260 are paying attention to it they're 2739 01:49:52,430 --> 01:49:49,440 watching shows like Skinwalker Ranch 2740 01:49:54,590 --> 01:49:52,440 which our Tucker Carlson right yeah or 2741 01:49:56,390 --> 01:49:54,600 Tucker Carlson 2742 01:49:57,890 --> 01:49:56,400 said I want to just say Gracie thank you 2743 01:49:59,149 --> 01:49:57,900 for your nice comment that's I 2744 01:50:01,669 --> 01:49:59,159 appreciate that 2745 01:50:02,930 --> 01:50:01,679 in chat so 2746 01:50:04,970 --> 01:50:02,940 so um 2747 01:50:06,350 --> 01:50:04,980 my my last question for you this evening 2748 01:50:08,270 --> 01:50:06,360 Erica 2749 01:50:10,310 --> 01:50:08,280 um is maybe a bigger picker bigger 2750 01:50:12,470 --> 01:50:10,320 picture question 2751 01:50:14,629 --> 01:50:12,480 what uh what are the questions in your 2752 01:50:15,890 --> 01:50:14,639 mind like when you're in bed at night 2753 01:50:17,390 --> 01:50:15,900 and it's two in the morning and you're 2754 01:50:18,890 --> 01:50:17,400 thinking about this subject what are 2755 01:50:22,669 --> 01:50:18,900 those big unanswered questions that 2756 01:50:29,510 --> 01:50:26,209 oh my Lord you know I 2757 01:50:31,250 --> 01:50:29,520 that I think right now for me I'm 2758 01:50:33,709 --> 01:50:31,260 ah you know I've been going through such 2759 01:50:35,149 --> 01:50:33,719 a transition and as you know you guys 2760 01:50:37,910 --> 01:50:35,159 know because I know that you've listened 2761 01:50:39,470 --> 01:50:37,920 to my my shows it's been trying to weed 2762 01:50:41,570 --> 01:50:39,480 through some of the things that have 2763 01:50:46,310 --> 01:50:41,580 been going on personally and then trying 2764 01:50:49,729 --> 01:50:46,320 to navigate the Muddy Waters of the you 2765 01:50:52,250 --> 01:50:49,739 know the Brokers of of BS in the subject 2766 01:50:55,550 --> 01:50:52,260 and and so to me getting answers and 2767 01:50:58,189 --> 01:50:55,560 digging up things about them has been 2768 01:50:59,629 --> 01:50:58,199 kind of front and center and then also 2769 01:51:01,490 --> 01:50:59,639 how I'm going to move forward with the 2770 01:51:04,189 --> 01:51:01,500 new non-profits 2771 01:51:06,910 --> 01:51:04,199 um and then also on a personal level how 2772 01:51:11,209 --> 01:51:06,920 do I get back to feeling empowered 2773 01:51:13,550 --> 01:51:11,219 by loving this subject by wanting to 2774 01:51:15,229 --> 01:51:13,560 explore by understanding that there are 2775 01:51:17,530 --> 01:51:15,239 things out there that I can explain how 2776 01:51:19,790 --> 01:51:17,540 do I bring myself back around when I've 2777 01:51:22,550 --> 01:51:19,800 experienced so much 2778 01:51:23,930 --> 01:51:22,560 um nonsense and so it's been you know 2779 01:51:25,990 --> 01:51:23,940 like I said at the beginning of the show 2780 01:51:29,750 --> 01:51:26,000 it's like been a shamanic dismemberment 2781 01:51:32,149 --> 01:51:29,760 so now I'm to this point where okay here 2782 01:51:34,609 --> 01:51:32,159 I am I'm picking up the pieces how can I 2783 01:51:36,430 --> 01:51:34,619 move forward how can I find my power how 2784 01:51:39,709 --> 01:51:36,440 can I hold the experiences that I've had 2785 01:51:41,689 --> 01:51:39,719 close to me and Find meaning for them 2786 01:51:43,370 --> 01:51:41,699 and how do I 2787 01:51:46,189 --> 01:51:43,380 change the world 2788 01:51:48,350 --> 01:51:46,199 I don't know just the small questions it 2789 01:51:50,689 --> 01:51:48,360 depends on if it's 2 A.M or 4 a.m and 2790 01:51:51,770 --> 01:51:50,699 you know what's taking place but I I 2791 01:51:54,410 --> 01:51:51,780 mean I really 2792 01:51:57,590 --> 01:51:54,420 I I like I said I'm Don Quixote I think 2793 01:51:59,930 --> 01:51:57,600 I think we can change make a positive 2794 01:52:01,910 --> 01:51:59,940 change in the world and so that's what 2795 01:52:04,129 --> 01:52:01,920 I'm trying to do 2796 01:52:06,890 --> 01:52:04,139 in my own little way so those are all 2797 01:52:09,830 --> 01:52:06,900 the things that go through my mind 2798 01:52:10,729 --> 01:52:09,840 it's a beautiful answer Erica and uh if 2799 01:52:13,550 --> 01:52:10,739 you ever want to talk about the 2800 01:52:15,890 --> 01:52:13,560 Shamanism thing or uh alternative 2801 01:52:19,250 --> 01:52:15,900 healing modalities or is happy to chat 2802 01:52:21,430 --> 01:52:19,260 about making sense of yeah the trauma 2803 01:52:23,510 --> 01:52:21,440 and craziness but um I would love that 2804 01:52:25,550 --> 01:52:23,520 thank you so much for coming on the show 2805 01:52:26,870 --> 01:52:25,560 tonight this is a real treasure 2806 01:52:28,550 --> 01:52:26,880 um you know we're all privileged and 2807 01:52:29,930 --> 01:52:28,560 honored to have you here especially at 2808 01:52:31,250 --> 01:52:29,940 this point in your career where you're 2809 01:52:32,450 --> 01:52:31,260 taking this step 2810 01:52:33,950 --> 01:52:32,460 um you know away from what you've known 2811 01:52:35,330 --> 01:52:33,960 and towards something really exciting 2812 01:52:37,910 --> 01:52:35,340 and new 2813 01:52:40,189 --> 01:52:37,920 um thank you so right before I kick you 2814 01:52:42,169 --> 01:52:40,199 off the stream where canara where can 2815 01:52:45,109 --> 01:52:42,179 our audience find you they can find me 2816 01:52:47,870 --> 01:52:45,119 at expandingfrontiersresearch.org 2817 01:52:50,930 --> 01:52:47,880 um I am not on Twitter as much as you 2818 01:52:52,910 --> 01:52:50,940 noticed as I should be policy lately I'm 2819 01:52:54,350 --> 01:52:52,920 just like ah but yeah expanding 2820 01:52:55,669 --> 01:52:54,360 Frontiers research make sure you 2821 01:52:58,250 --> 01:52:55,679 subscribe 2822 01:53:00,229 --> 01:52:58,260 um to our wonderful blog Jack has done 2823 01:53:03,590 --> 01:53:00,239 so much work on this and we've got some 2824 01:53:05,930 --> 01:53:03,600 more exciting stuff coming up so stay 2825 01:53:07,729 --> 01:53:05,940 tuned and thank you all for being for 2826 01:53:10,370 --> 01:53:07,739 inviting me here and and I can't wait to 2827 01:53:12,109 --> 01:53:10,380 get each of you on my show again for two 2828 01:53:13,550 --> 01:53:12,119 of you and then you know for the other 2829 01:53:15,470 --> 01:53:13,560 two of you I would love to have you on 2830 01:53:17,209 --> 01:53:15,480 so the invitation is there and I'll 2831 01:53:19,910 --> 01:53:17,219 touch base with you 2832 01:53:25,970 --> 01:53:19,920 wonderful Erica thanks again thanks guys 2833 01:53:30,109 --> 01:53:27,530 all right gentlemen that was a great 2834 01:53:33,470 --> 01:53:30,119 conversation absolutely I really like 2835 01:53:34,790 --> 01:53:33,480 you know Erica yeah yeah it's also like 2836 01:53:36,169 --> 01:53:34,800 look it's exciting to have her in 2837 01:53:38,570 --> 01:53:36,179 conversation because I feel like she's 2838 01:53:39,709 --> 01:53:38,580 frequently in the opposite role right 2839 01:53:42,229 --> 01:53:39,719 she's always the one who's doing the 2840 01:53:43,609 --> 01:53:42,239 interviewing and it's a real opportunity 2841 01:53:44,990 --> 01:53:43,619 I think to talk to someone who's been 2842 01:53:46,970 --> 01:53:45,000 through some serious battles in the 2843 01:53:49,250 --> 01:53:46,980 community who has what I would 2844 01:53:52,129 --> 01:53:49,260 characterize as a pretty mature and 2845 01:53:54,830 --> 01:53:52,139 grounded perspective on the subject 2846 01:53:56,450 --> 01:53:54,840 um and also understands the importance 2847 01:53:58,550 --> 01:53:56,460 of just 2848 01:54:00,169 --> 01:53:58,560 um I would say like stewardship of the 2849 01:54:02,390 --> 01:54:00,179 subject like creating this archive 2850 01:54:04,490 --> 01:54:02,400 leading these research initiatives and 2851 01:54:05,330 --> 01:54:04,500 that frankly the courage of 2852 01:54:07,250 --> 01:54:05,340 um 2853 01:54:09,709 --> 01:54:07,260 remaining in this community and in this 2854 01:54:12,109 --> 01:54:09,719 subject over the course of her 2855 01:54:13,609 --> 01:54:12,119 experience yeah definitely 2856 01:54:14,870 --> 01:54:13,619 I'm really looking forward to this 2857 01:54:16,790 --> 01:54:14,880 project she's working and I think it's 2858 01:54:19,669 --> 01:54:16,800 really awesome like I've I've always 2859 01:54:21,169 --> 01:54:19,679 really enjoyed the AFU and seeing her 2860 01:54:23,149 --> 01:54:21,179 doing something kind of parallel to that 2861 01:54:25,189 --> 01:54:23,159 super exciting and I love that it's 2862 01:54:27,109 --> 01:54:25,199 going to be open to everybody because 2863 01:54:29,270 --> 01:54:27,119 like that's what we need to be doing 2864 01:54:32,450 --> 01:54:29,280 instead of hiding things like behind pay 2865 01:54:34,550 --> 01:54:32,460 walls or uh you know memberships and 2866 01:54:36,050 --> 01:54:34,560 things like that or even just hiding 2867 01:54:38,390 --> 01:54:36,060 them period like making something 2868 01:54:40,010 --> 01:54:38,400 completely inaccessible to people right 2869 01:54:42,649 --> 01:54:40,020 like we were talking about with mufon 2870 01:54:44,930 --> 01:54:42,659 before not only are you paying for a 2871 01:54:48,410 --> 01:54:44,940 membership but you're still not getting 2872 01:54:50,030 --> 01:54:48,420 much after you pass that AWOL you're 2873 01:54:53,030 --> 01:54:50,040 still getting just bear Snippets from 2874 01:54:55,310 --> 01:54:53,040 their uh their database so yeah it's 2875 01:54:57,590 --> 01:54:55,320 super awesome and I love all that old 2876 01:55:00,350 --> 01:54:57,600 stuff too but I could dig through that 2877 01:55:02,810 --> 01:55:00,360 stuff all day of course 2878 01:55:05,270 --> 01:55:02,820 I really appreciated hearing Erica's 2879 01:55:07,430 --> 01:55:05,280 perspective especially because of my own 2880 01:55:09,410 --> 01:55:07,440 experience watching her show I've seen 2881 01:55:13,250 --> 01:55:09,420 so many of her shows and and she always 2882 01:55:15,830 --> 01:55:13,260 does stick to the facts uh it asks 2883 01:55:18,350 --> 01:55:15,840 questions around data collection and 2884 01:55:20,930 --> 01:55:18,360 things like that she's not leaning into 2885 01:55:23,629 --> 01:55:20,940 any particular answer that's something 2886 01:55:25,070 --> 01:55:23,639 that I really appreciated first getting 2887 01:55:26,270 --> 01:55:25,080 into the subject I didn't feel like 2888 01:55:28,189 --> 01:55:26,280 somebody was telling me what was 2889 01:55:30,290 --> 01:55:28,199 happening right she was really looking 2890 01:55:34,129 --> 01:55:30,300 for the information so it was really 2891 01:55:36,350 --> 01:55:34,139 neat to hear her hear today on a show 2892 01:55:38,330 --> 01:55:36,360 that we've started after uh you know a 2893 01:55:40,970 --> 01:55:38,340 year and a half of me uh being engaged 2894 01:55:43,550 --> 01:55:40,980 with this it feels uh phenomenal and I 2895 01:55:46,970 --> 01:55:43,560 think seeing the the comments coming in 2896 01:55:49,010 --> 01:55:46,980 and people engaging with it uh I I get a 2897 01:55:50,870 --> 01:55:49,020 real sense that uh some of the things 2898 01:55:52,370 --> 01:55:50,880 that she's mentioning it's touching an 2899 01:55:54,830 --> 01:55:52,380 important nerve with some people people 2900 01:55:56,350 --> 01:55:54,840 are experiencing what Eric is describing 2901 01:55:59,510 --> 01:55:56,360 in this community there is something 2902 01:56:02,750 --> 01:55:59,520 problematic Happening Here 2903 01:56:05,810 --> 01:56:02,760 I agree there's such an like 2904 01:56:07,609 --> 01:56:05,820 I've been so heartened by the response 2905 01:56:09,530 --> 01:56:07,619 of our work you know the response to 2906 01:56:11,149 --> 01:56:09,540 Erica's work because I do think there is 2907 01:56:14,209 --> 01:56:11,159 an appetite for these kinds of 2908 01:56:16,609 --> 01:56:14,219 conversations that far outstrip 2909 01:56:19,490 --> 01:56:16,619 um the nature of the media in this space 2910 01:56:26,330 --> 01:56:22,570 what about you Luis how are you 2911 01:56:31,430 --> 01:56:29,510 struggling I um seconds all those 2912 01:56:34,490 --> 01:56:31,440 sentiments about Erica 2913 01:56:38,390 --> 01:56:34,500 and um I hope you can get into some of 2914 01:56:41,810 --> 01:56:38,400 the um especially some of the 2915 01:56:43,189 --> 01:56:41,820 science stuff on her and then you 2916 01:56:43,970 --> 01:56:43,199 Endeavor 2917 01:56:55,550 --> 01:56:43,980 um 2918 01:56:57,229 --> 01:56:55,560 perspective as well you know 2919 01:56:58,550 --> 01:56:57,239 we shouldn't just we shouldn't just do 2920 01:57:00,530 --> 01:56:58,560 science because it's interesting but 2921 01:57:02,270 --> 01:57:00,540 also because it has the potential to 2922 01:57:04,250 --> 01:57:02,280 help people 2923 01:57:06,470 --> 01:57:04,260 and give them a sense of like The Wonder 2924 01:57:08,270 --> 01:57:06,480 of the universe and I think that's 2925 01:57:11,270 --> 01:57:08,280 something that they often miss out on 2926 01:57:13,609 --> 01:57:11,280 when um they go into you know they get 2927 01:57:15,109 --> 01:57:13,619 deep into pseudoscience is that they 2928 01:57:18,229 --> 01:57:15,119 actually miss out on a lot of the Wonder 2929 01:57:20,149 --> 01:57:18,239 ironically right right yeah they kind of 2930 01:57:23,209 --> 01:57:20,159 come at the perspective like uh or the 2931 01:57:25,070 --> 01:57:23,219 the materialist take is kind of a uh 2932 01:57:27,290 --> 01:57:25,080 raining on a parade right it's it's 2933 01:57:28,790 --> 01:57:27,300 saying it's saying that these um more 2934 01:57:31,550 --> 01:57:28,800 Fantastical things don't exist but 2935 01:57:34,970 --> 01:57:31,560 there's still plenty of room for kind of 2936 01:57:37,390 --> 01:57:34,980 even a spiritual view of the universe 2937 01:57:41,330 --> 01:57:37,400 through science so yeah 2938 01:57:43,510 --> 01:57:41,340 it really depends on the perspective 2939 01:57:47,270 --> 01:57:43,520 that's a good point Luis because 2940 01:57:49,609 --> 01:57:47,280 originally when a natural philosophy or 2941 01:57:52,810 --> 01:57:49,619 what we call science now came out there 2942 01:57:55,850 --> 01:57:52,820 was a tendency to explain 2943 01:57:59,330 --> 01:57:55,860 historical uh perceptions of things that 2944 01:58:02,330 --> 01:57:59,340 are Supernatural in new natural terms 2945 01:58:05,810 --> 01:58:02,340 and it ended up sweeping up a bunch of 2946 01:58:08,990 --> 01:58:05,820 things that don't necessarily exist but 2947 01:58:10,790 --> 01:58:09,000 physical uh explanations were put on to 2948 01:58:12,890 --> 01:58:10,800 them and then there was this pushback 2949 01:58:14,570 --> 01:58:12,900 where we now have the modern uh 2950 01:58:17,050 --> 01:58:14,580 debunking culture which is so valuable 2951 01:58:20,209 --> 01:58:17,060 to remove that 2952 01:58:21,589 --> 01:58:20,219 inclination to explain everything and so 2953 01:58:22,669 --> 01:58:21,599 I think when you're touching us to be 2954 01:58:25,189 --> 01:58:22,679 very important there was pseudoscience 2955 01:58:27,530 --> 01:58:25,199 is that everything is explained and the 2956 01:58:31,010 --> 01:58:27,540 explanations just aren't uh 2957 01:58:33,490 --> 01:58:31,020 super convincing a lot of the time and I 2958 01:58:36,350 --> 01:58:33,500 know for a fact that I have that 2959 01:58:37,970 --> 01:58:36,360 intrinsic desire myself I want to 2960 01:58:40,729 --> 01:58:37,980 explain this that's why I'm still 2961 01:58:44,270 --> 01:58:40,739 interested in it I have a desire to 2962 01:58:48,109 --> 01:58:44,280 figure out why this stuff is happening 2963 01:58:51,589 --> 01:58:48,119 the way it is on this subject and 2964 01:58:54,169 --> 01:58:51,599 it is so easy to give people easy 2965 01:58:55,490 --> 01:58:54,179 answers and to fulfill that need for an 2966 01:58:56,570 --> 01:58:55,500 explanation 2967 01:58:59,990 --> 01:58:56,580 um you know it's something we have to be 2968 01:59:02,270 --> 01:59:00,000 very careful of and I I present a an 2969 01:59:03,950 --> 01:59:02,280 explanation that I think is possibly the 2970 01:59:05,629 --> 01:59:03,960 most likely often but I also want to say 2971 01:59:07,910 --> 01:59:05,639 I don't know and I'm not a sign I'm not 2972 01:59:09,649 --> 01:59:07,920 a physicist and stuff and I my mind is 2973 01:59:11,570 --> 01:59:09,659 still open and I really appreciate that 2974 01:59:13,609 --> 01:59:11,580 kind of perspective and I think that we 2975 01:59:15,890 --> 01:59:13,619 need more of it 2976 01:59:18,950 --> 01:59:15,900 wonderful Kimbo 2977 01:59:19,790 --> 01:59:18,960 perfect words to close the show on 2978 01:59:22,310 --> 01:59:19,800 um 2979 01:59:24,350 --> 01:59:22,320 so everyone thanks so much for joining 2980 01:59:26,270 --> 01:59:24,360 this evening uh joined the invisible 2981 01:59:27,709 --> 01:59:26,280 night school we have our Discord posted 2982 01:59:29,870 --> 01:59:27,719 in the show description feel free to 2983 01:59:31,430 --> 01:59:29,880 drop in and join the conversation 2984 01:59:33,709 --> 01:59:31,440 um next week we'll be doing something of 2985 01:59:36,530 --> 01:59:33,719 an open lines style Round Table talking 2986 01:59:39,290 --> 01:59:36,540 through the conference in New York last 2987 01:59:41,870 --> 01:59:39,300 week on inquiry into anomalous 2988 01:59:44,030 --> 01:59:41,880 experiences and the phenomena and then 2989 01:59:46,070 --> 01:59:44,040 the week after on the 21st we'll be 2990 01:59:48,229 --> 01:59:46,080 welcoming Jack Brewer so Eric is 2991 01:59:50,149 --> 01:59:48,239 counterpart on the expanding Frontiers 2992 01:59:51,770 --> 01:59:50,159 research initiative super excited to 2993 01:59:54,350 --> 01:59:51,780 have him on the show 2994 01:59:56,270 --> 01:59:54,360 um and until then stay safe stay smart 2995 02:00:02,640 --> 01:59:56,280 and let's stay sharp all have a nice 2996 02:00:11,030 --> 02:00:09,850 [Music] 2997 02:00:38,570 --> 02:00:11,040 thank you 2998 02:00:41,160 --> 02:00:38,580 [Music] 2999 02:00:45,070 --> 02:00:41,170 [Applause] 3000 02:00:47,990 --> 02:00:45,080 [Music] 3001 02:00:55,750 --> 02:00:48,000 thank you 3002 02:00:55,760 --> 02:01:19,910 [Music]